Template:Did you know nominations/Gerhard Klingenberg: Difference between revisions

Gerhard Klingenberg

Klingenberg in 2010

• ... that Gerhard Klingenberg, who stepped in to play Camille in Büchner's Dantons Tod at the Burgtheater in Vienna at age 18, managed the theatre from 1971 to 1976? Source: [1]
  • Reviewed: to come

Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC).

• The article is new enough and long enough. Sourcing is proper; everything is in German so generally AGF on the sources. QPQ is still pending. I did not find any close paraphrasing. Article was on ITN's Recent Deaths section so it remains eligible for DYK. The issue is the hook: it fails WP:DYKINT as it is reliant on specialist information that general audiences may not have (a reader who doesn't know that the Burgtheater is Austria's main theater might not get the importance, and why is Camille singled out?). It's also too complicated and has too many facts; ideally it should focus on only one primary fact. There's also the issue raised by 4meter4 in the past that these "actor stepping into roles" instances are not actually that interesting or unusual as that's what understudies tend to do. Given that WT:DYK is not a fan of these "people doing their job" hooks, here are some possible alternatives; I've struck the original hook due to the issues raised above.

ALT1 ... that Gerhard Klingenberg took on his stage name due to a prohibition on students at his school taking up acting?

ALT2 ... that during his tenure as the manager of Austria's Burgtheater from 1971 to 1976, Gerhard Klingenberg often directed plays with analogies to a divided Europe?

Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:31, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

ALT1 - in my humble opinion - is trivia which neglects his importance in the theatre world, and focuses on the Austrian bureaucracy. A you aware that this man recently died?

ALT2 has it, but is very general in the second fact. Why not mention the precise play, which is unusual? Stepping in at 18 seems more interesting to me than the analogies, and more interesting than taking on a stage name.

I hate to name a play in English that was played in German, but for our crowd's sake:

ALT0a: ... that Gerhard Klingenberg (pictured), who stepped in at Vienna's Burgtheater at age 18 to play Camille in Büchner's Danton's Death, managed the theatre from 1971 to 1976? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The issue with ALT0 isn't whether or not the play's title is in German or English, but rather the nature of the hook itself. Multiple editors within the DYK community have objected to these "performer plays role" hooks as they're basically about these people doing their job, which isn't what DYK is looking for. ALT0/ALT0a, as mentioned earlier, also fails WP:DYKINT because, again, the hook is heavily reliant on specialist information or context and thus general readers won't get it. I have struck ALT0a as well for the same reasons. You need to propose a completely different angle here, or agree to ALT1/ALT2, because otherwise the nomination will be failed for lack of a suitable hook. To answer your question about Klingenberg's death, him dying recently does not change the issues with the proposal. Just because he died recently doesn't mean a hook about him should be exempt from DYKINT. Is there a problem if ALT1 is "trivia"? Because when you think about it, DYK hooks are supposed to be trivia: that's why they're called hooks. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:09, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

We will have to disagree. ALT1 boils down to "he took a stage name" which is trivial and nothing personal, no achievement. Better no DYK than that. I learned "only good about the dead", and I understand that it is "Did you know ...? interested in passing knowledge. I also claim that a play title such as "Dantons Death" is interesting, and that ALT0b is less interesting.

ALT0b: ... that Gerhard Klingenberg (pictured), who stepped in at Vienna's Burgtheater at age 18, managed the theatre from 1971 to 1976? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:40, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

There seems to be a fundamental disagreement about DYK's purpose because how DYK hooks are meant to be written, per DYKINT, is if they are interesting to a broad audience. That is, if they are likely to be perceived as interesting by non-specialist readers. Highlighting a person or subject's achievements or even claim to fame is at best a secondary reason but not a primary one and definitely not something that is explicitly or even implicitly suggested by the guidelines. The opposition to "trivia" here is surprising considering that, in practice, DYK is intended to promote "trivia". That's why there's so much emphasis on highlighting unusual or eye-catching facts, even if that isn't what the subject is best known for. There is a reason why DYK nominators and reviewers generally prefer hooks that go "DYK that Winston Churchill was an amateur bricklayer?" and not "DYK that Winston Churchill was a British Prime Minister?"

In any case, ALT0c is rejected for the same reason as ALT0a and ALT0b: it is reliant on specialist knowledge and the average readership will not get why it is unusual or interesting ("why is it important that Klingenberg managed the Burgtheater for five years?", "how is his tenure significant or unusual in any way?", "what's the Burgtheater and why is it important?", "what does "step in at age 18 mean?", or "is stepping in at age 18 even unusual or interesting?") If you would prefer the nomination fail rather than agree to a hook that targets general readership then that's your prerogative but ALT0's hook fact by itself simply does not meet DYKINT and thus cannot be used. If you cannot propose a completely different angle from ALT0 and/or accept ALT1/ALT2, then the nomination will be marked for closure. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Before having read your replay I asked an independent user t look into this. I have no time today, travelling. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

After reading AirshipJungleman29's talk page, maybe an alternate wording of ALT2 could work as well. At the very least I'm certain it will attract more attention to the article than any hook involving him stepping in for a role or any hook about any of his specific roles. Such an angle could work given that the context involved (history) is a lot more accessible than European theatre. If the goal is to promote Klingenberg and allow more readers to click on the article, this angle might do the trick:

ALT3 ... that Gerhard Klingenberg, who decided to leave East Germany following the construction of the Berlin Wall, directed plays with analogies to a divided Europe?

It does lose the mention of the Burgtheater but that is to prevent information overload and allow a direct focus on the main point; I could propose a slight revision that includes it if you wish. I really don't think the "stepped in" angle is going to withstand scrutiny given how WT:DYK has often raised complaints about role hooks. My main concern with this angle is the context of "analogies to a divided Europe"; the wording is rather vague if the plays themselves were the ones that had analogies, or he directed them in such a way that he incorporated said analogies, but I guess that can be worked out in the article itself. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the offer, but the greater miracle in his career was that Brecht made this Austrian come to East Berlin, and on that background, the way back seems less dramatic, just a way home more or less, not - as the hook would make me believe - as an East German dissident. I am also not sure that he directed these plays, - he was great - as almost all obituaries say in other words - in attracting the most wanted European directors of the time to do the actual directing job. I see coming that you say that our readers don't know these directors, if you think that they don't know the most important drama house for the German language, and would not be willing to look it up.

ALT4: ... that after a career as actor and director at Austrian theatres, Gerhard Klingenberg (pictured) followed Bertolt Brecht's invitation to work for his Berliner Ensemble in East Berlin? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

The issue here again is always the reliance on specialist information. It's been repeated to you many many many times already, but what happens is you insist on hooks that primarily appeal to you and not to the general public. You are an expert in European classical music and theatre and most readers are not, so the goal is to appeal to the lowest-common denominator and target the widest audience, not the smallest. ALT3 is probably not the ideal option (I actually somewhat prefer ALT1 myself), but it would almost certainly get more attention than ALT4. I understand you deeply care about these people and their circumstances, but the way things are going, you are really just writing hooks for yourself and not for others, something that AirshipJungleman24 noted in your discussion with him. In any case, I have struck ALT4 for failing to meet WP:DYKINT as relying too much on knowledge or context that the vast majority of readers do not have. Again, I get your goal is to educate readers about these subjects, but again, that's the goal of the article, not the hook. The hook's goal is to attract readers to read the article, and then they will learn. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)