Talk:Lucy Letby: Difference between revisions

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Please change "Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who murdered seven infants and attempted the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016." to "Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016. 2603:6010:CF01:DD1:BCDB:FF02:134C:47D2 (talk) 02:45, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Charliehdb (talk) 04:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Surely this requirement is quite backwards in this situation? There are reliable sources referenced in the responses section which make a good case questioning the validity of the verdict. As well, other sources state that many still believe in her innocence and the possibility of a miscarriage.

The fact there's credible sources dounting her guilt means that "murdered seven infants" is the statement actively making a claim, while "was convicted of murdering seven infants" is a neutral statement. The latter doesn't even read as doubting the conviction, just not taking it as absolute certainty that she did it. 2A0A:EF40:45A:5401:6421:5F92:445B:BDAB (talk) 16:37, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a request for comment on the lead sentence five months ago that settled on the current wording. Please see the link below, thank you.

→ RFC for Lead sentence

JAYFAX (talk) 15:43, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the May 20, 2024 issue of the New Yorker Magazine, there is an article by Rachel Aviv, called "Conviction, Did a neonatal nurse really kill seven newborns?". The article suggests that the allegations against and trial and conviction of Lucy Letby, the accused, may be faulty and based on data from which erroneous conclusions were made. My suggestion is rather than starting the bio with the characterization "murderer of seven infants" it be changed to a more ambiguous description such as "neonatal nurse accused and convicted by UK Court". Perhaps include some of the points made in the New Yorker article to leave for consideration, the possibility of other possible causes (the hospital was understaffed and mismanaged, currently they are experiencing a jump in complications in women in the post-natal unit) and also, the seeming bias toward conviction of some of the witnesses and police agency. Thank you, Karen Blume 71.212.172.63 (talk) 22:24, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 16:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have time at the moment to write or edit anything, but this is in the Guardian today [1]. A quick reading of it didn't show me anything we have not seen before, but it may support some information that we formerly chose not to include as it was not published in a reliable source. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:15, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a fair bit in there about conspiracy theorists and amateur investigators, but apart from mentioning Gill and MacKenzie, there's nothing on the wealth of other people with relevant expertise who have weighed in on the case.

Two stories in leading broadsheets from both sides of the political spectrum came out this week. They quote consultant neonatologists, legal professionals, statisticians, forensic scientists, and various other highly qualified individuals. These are paid lip service in the third paragraph, but the sole quote is given to a columnist from Spiked magazine.

2A00:23C6:AE87:3401:213B:61A5:EDC4:518C (talk) 08:08, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. When I noted the Guardian article above, I meant I had no time to read it carefully and create new prose on our page, not that I had no time to mention it exists. The spiked magazine quote is odd too. We should not be just reporting opinions of columnists. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ETA: I am concurring with the argument here, not necessarily the section title. "Highly biased" is a subjective assessment. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• A neutral article would be one that dispassionately gives the opinions on either side. Per WP:IMPARTIAL, "The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view". Whether we agree or not with the views is irrelevant, we must give the views of those whatever political opinions they have. Disallowing one source as it's 'odd' is not sufficient. There would be a bias if only the views of Letby 'truthers' are included, with no right of reply for others. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 17:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  There should be no random opinions. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:09, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I happened to come along the present page and find a very biased, non-encyclopedic, article. On the top of this talk page there is an edit request to slightly improve the page. Let me endorse it: Please change "Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who murdered seven infants and attempted the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016." to "Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016." That would report the facts. Whether she really did this is denied by herself and doubted by many. Nhart129 (talk) 10:35, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was already an 'RFC' on this. HouseplantHobbyist (talk) 15:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the article is still very biased. Also, the number of reliable sources that express doubt increases all the time. Sooner or later, preferably sooner, the present text has to become more balanced. Nhart129 (talk) 18:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article is biased towards what reliable independent sources have said, you need to provide the sources that support your changes, otherwise it is just your personal opinion. Theroadislong (talk) 18:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Independent (today or yesterday) has a long article "Is Lucy Letby innocent? I’m a miscarriage of justice investigator – and here’s what I think...".

The Guardian, 9 Jul 2024: "Lucy Letby: killer or coincidence? Why some experts question the evidence. Exclusive: Doubts raised over safety of convictions of nurse found guilty of murdering babies."

The NewYorker, 13 May 2024: "A British Nurse Was Found Guilty of Killing Seven Babies. Did She Do It?"

The Telegraph, 10 Jul 2024: "Former Cabinet ministers concerned by Letby case".

The Telegraph, 11 Jul 2024: "Letby case ‘has echoes’ of wrongly accused Canadian nurse, says expert" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhart129 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Daily Mail, 13 Jul 2024: "What if Lucy Letby is innocent? Her case must be reopened as growing doubts about her conviction are raised by medical experts and criminologists".

National Review, 11 Jul 2024: "The Disturbingly Shaky Conviction of Lucy Letby"

...

There are many sources that express doubt. Nhart129 (talk) 19:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

and the section "Doubts about the conviction" includes many of those sources and more, The Daily Mail cannot be used for anything on Wikipedia though. Theroadislong (talk) 19:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are cherry-picking and ignore my request: change in the first sentence the "who murdered" part into "who was convicted of murdering". WP must have a NPOV, and "who murdered" is not. If you dislike one of the six sources I mentioned, there are more. Nhart129 (talk) 20:11, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For information: the lead sentence was intensively discussed in an RFC in December 2023 to January 2024. (RFCs are one of Wikipedia's formal processes for establishing community consensus, and their outcomes remain in effect indefinitely.) That discussion's now in our talk page archive at Talk:Lucy Letby/Archive 3#RFC on Lead sentence. NebY (talk) 20:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We try not to rehash RFC discussions every few months unless there's been a significant change in our RSs. Now that the retrial's over, UK sources would no longer be in contempt of court and are reporting or publishing doubts and challenges; this includes sources that we've already used for other content in this article. At some point we're going to have to consider again whether we should begin with "convicted of ..." (or similar) or keep the current "who murdered". Is there a good reason to wait, for example do we expect a lot more to appear in RSs soon? If not then we might open a new RFC quite soon, though it would probably be useful to briefly workshop some alternative phrasings before opening a new RFC that would fix on one. NebY (talk) 20:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link to the RFC. I think that the situation today is different. There is serious doubt, expressed in reliable sources. A NPOV cannot choose sides. So "convicted of ..." is really necessary, it is the NPOV. I cannot think of a reason to wait. This is a doubt that is not going to disappear (unless she confesses). Nhart129 (talk) 20:45, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I personally don't have a problem with "Lucy Letby (born 4 January 1990) is a British former neonatal nurse who was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting the murder of six others between June 2015 and June 2016." BUT Wikipedia works by consensus and until that consensus changes the wording remains as it is. Theroadislong (talk) 20:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's attempting the murder of seven now, too. But otherwise that is a good starter for a possible new RfC. The RfC would need that option, and the status quo ante. Anything else? I expect that we could argue that with the completion of the retrial, and the lifting of reporting restrictions, along with the coverage it is getting, that now is a good time to revisit this. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]