User talk:Vintagekits: Difference between revisions

{{warning| If you are here to point out my spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, poor punctuation, don't bother - I know its poor and no amount of spell checks can sort that out. I'm not perfect; you're (possibly) not perfect; there's only ever been one man in this world who's ever been totally perfect and they even [[Jesus|crucified him]]}}

'''This is a troll-free zone.'''

'''This editor has full permission to remove, without replying, any comments he feels are likely to inflame dispute. If you have a problem with this editor, you are invited to bring that concern to the attention of [[User:SirFozzie]] or another member of the administrator community, but please bear in mind that we have a zero-tolerance approach to harassment. Constructive dialogue is always welcome, but if your message is removed it is safe to assume that [[User:Vintagekits]] has read it and chooses not to debate with you at this time.'''

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! align="left" | [[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br />[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]

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# [[/Archive 1/|Archive 1 - 5 August 2006 to 25 January 2007]]

# [[/Archive 2/|Archive 2 - 25 January 2007 - 5 February 2007]]

# [[/Archive 3/|Archive 3 - 5 February 2007 - 8 March 2007]]

# [[/Archive 4/|Archive 4 - 9 March - 14 May 2007]]

# [[/Archive 5/|Archive 5 - 14 May - 7 July 2007]]

# [[/Archive 6/|Archive 6]]

|}

Comments from unregistered users will be deleted!

==Good job==

If he doesn't take action, I will. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 16:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:Cheers.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 16:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

==Incivility==

Please stop refering to me as Weggie [[User:Kernel Saunters|Kernel Saunters]] 11:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:I was informed that you are Weggie - p.s. whats uncivil/incivil about it anyway?--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 11:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

==Michael Gaughan (Irish republican)==

I think it could be useful information. But the medical explanation wasn't sourced &mdash; the law article didn't say anything about that. &mdash; '''[[User:Rebelguys2|Rebelguys2]]''' ^{<font color="#CC5500">[[User talk:Rebelguys2|talk]]</font>} 22:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

:I was wondering what the source of him being a member of OIRA was as I have never come across this claim before.--[[User:Padraig3uk|padraig3uk]] 02:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::I added the source ya dimwit - I was also quite surprised to read it myself and I didnt know it.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 02:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Sorry I didn't see that, first I ever heard of it, I wonder did he switch sides in prison, as the OIRA were defunct in all but name by then.--[[User:Padraig3uk|padraig3uk]] 02:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::::I'd say he switched prior to the bank raid but I dont know, I would say OIRA via C na hE was his idological entry into republicanism but didnt do feck all for them in reality and then he move to PIRA and entered the war for real but thats all guesswork.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 02:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Possible, as that would explain why it is seldom or never mentioned.--[[User:Padraig3uk|padraig3uk]] 03:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Gibnews ==

Hi Vintagekits and thank you for your message. Can you find me the diff where he said that? The one you sent me was of him removing the warning. You have done the right thing in raising the matter with me. Not to be picky, but why do you call me Gunniog? That never was my user name and I've been User:John for quite a while now. Best wishes; I will help you if I can. --[[User:John|John]] 01:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:I gave him a last warning; [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASirFozzie&diff=143205425&oldid=143204696 I'm sorry to see] that wasn't enough for you but I bristle at the accusation of double standards. Blocks are preventive, not punitive and I always give people a last chance to stop poor behaviour before blocking. I hope you can rein in any tendency to be uncivil in complaining about a matter based around civility, as I'm sure you can see how silly that would be. Let me know, please, if Gibnews continues to make problematic edits. --[[User:John|John]] 02:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::If it wasnt for the other two final warnings that you have given give (one for NPA and one for edit warring) then I might have consiered '''this''' final warning more seriously. Second;y, the reference to double standards is with reference to your asertion that you would like to block him because you would "too close" - pity that wasnt the case for me and especially ONiH for whom you became the straw that broke the camels back. slainte!--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 02:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::I think you had quite a few final warnings from me yourself over a period. I only blocked you in the end after a discussion at [[WP:AN/I]]. I declined ONiH's unblock request because he was continuing to behave badly. I repeat, I always give people a chance to improve because I believe established editors deserve that, however problematic their behaviour. As I'm sure you know, Gibnews was blocked by Tyrenius, so the result you wanted was achieved. I'd like to see you as part of your improvement plan put all these grudges from the past behind you. You could achieve a lot more if you did. --[[User:John|John]] 03:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::::I've been to confusion (its wikis version of confession!) and Fr. O'Leary has absolved me of my sins so as far as I am concerned its a clean(ish) slate.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 03:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Your protection of [[Template:Northern Ireland infobox]] ==

Hi Tariqabjotu, I'm not sure that your protection of that template is all that useful. When I first separated the infobox out of the main article ([[Northern Ireland]]) as a single-transclusion template, the intent was to keep the main article unprotected for other non-infobox related edits, while the dispute on the infobox played out. However, since the main article is currently unprotected, editors are able to create their ''own versions'' of the infobox and put it in the main article, ''completely bypassing'' the protected template. This has already happened. My attempt at dispute resolution was a failure. I think the proper course of action is to reverse my work and put the infobox code back inline into the main article and protect ''that'' instead. Thanks, [[User:Andrwsc|Andrwsc]] 21:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

:That might work. Perhaps this should be presented to [[WP:ANI]] for more feedback, however. {{user|Padraig3uk}} appears to have been disruptive with flags in a lot of places. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 22:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Can I comment on this, firstly Andrwsc, you did created a seperate template to allow the Northern Ireland article to be unprotected, something I agreed with, and also something I did myself in the past if you care to check through the edit history over the past 6 months, on that occassion the template was nominated for deletion by another editor involved in the dispute on the flag issue.

:::The template you created this time you didn't protect when you created it, dispite being told it would need protection to prevent an edit war, you then allowed one editor to reinsert the flag, and carry out 7 reverts in a 48hr period, before you protected the template and give that editor a warning about edit warring dispite the fact they had broken 3RR and should have been blocked from editing, yet you failed to revert the template back to it original state.

:::There are a small group of editors trying to use WP as a soapbox to promote a particular political POV on Northern Ireland the flag issue is only part of that they are also pushing the notion that all Northern Ireland people are Northern Irish as a ethic group or nationality, this is completely false as people in Northern Ireland can either regard themselves as British, Irish or with duel British/Irish nationality, Northern Irish is a Unionist creation.

:::I believe that WP should present the facts of the political situation in Northern Ireland, in this the Official Flag is the Union Flag, not the Ulster Banner. I also have no objection to the use of the Ulster banner in its proper context, when dealing with the period of 1921-72, I even used the Ulster Banner in this [[:Template:Politics of Northern Ireland 1921-72]] template I created to deal with the government and elections of that period, nor do I object to its use when dealing with sports people that identify with that flag or play in the commonwealth games under that flag. But I do object with their attempts to protray the Ulster Banner as representing Northern Ireland and its government today or since 1972.--[[User:Padraig3uk|padraig3uk]] 02:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

::::I would second that, Padraig has done more than most to resolve this issue, I would assert that it is the actions of {{user|Astrotrain}} that we need to be looking at as I believe the he creates the problems regarding this issue on many pages. --[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 02:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Padraig's creation of a second template to avoid the protection for [[Template:Northern Ireland infobox]] says enough. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 02:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::A second template in my opinion is very necessary and has been discussed for some time on the [[Northern Ireland]] talkpage - I again see this as a great effort on his behalf to resolve this issue. --[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 02:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::I would like to see where that was discussed. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 02:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::::No problem, [[Talk:Northern_Ireland#Changes_to_NI_in_the_Irish_states_template|here is a good start]] and linked to threads either side.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 02:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::That thread has nothing to do with this template. -- '''[[User:Tariqabjotu|<font color="black">tariq</font><font color="gray">abjotu</font>]]''' 02:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::It discusses creating the articles for which the [[Template:Politics of Northern Ireland 1921-72]] would be used.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 03:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::::::Vintagekits, we aren't discussing that template, but the infobox template I created to restore the [[Northern Ireland]] article back to the agree format before [[User:Setanta747]] made his edits.--[[User:Padraig3uk|padraig3uk]] 03:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Michael Gaughan (Irish republican) II==

Hello Vk. I was reading the above article that you have been contributing to and noted some serious issues with attributions. There are plenty of statements in this article that are written as facts, but when you read the sources they are most certainly not independent reliable sources. Just two examples:

*''The funeral had embarrassed the anti-Republican Fine Gael/Labour coalition goverment in Ireland at the time and its then-Taoiseach, Liam Cosgrave'' is sourced to ''[[An Phoblacht]]''. How on earth can the mouthpiece of one political party be an independent, reliable source of criticism of its opposition? This has to be attributed.

*''Six to eight guards would restrain the prisoner and drag him or her by the hair to the top of the bed, where they would stretch the prisoner’s neck over the metal rail, force a block between his or her teeth and then pass a feeding tube, which extended down the throat, through a hole in the block'', a description of the British method of forcefeeding, is sourced to [[NORAID]]. Again, this must be attributed, as the source is not independent.

Obviously, I could go ahead and do this myself, or bring it up on the talkpage. But I'm not really familiar with editing in this subject area, and first wanted to determine whether this sort of lack of attribution is the norm, and whether there would be protest about among the regulars. So I thought I would discuss it with your first.

Just to be clear, i'm not disputing the validity of this content, not am I saying that it is not accurate. I'm simply proposing that the content be attributed in the text, to make clear to the reader that this info is from sympathetic, rather than independent, sources. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 08:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:*Thanks for the email Rocket, we have a [[Talk:Diarmuid_O%27Neill#Analysis_of_sources_used|long(ish) standing agreement]] with what some might call "editors of another persuasion" that these sources are used especially, An Phoblacht, as it is the largest political weekly in Ireland and was one of the primary sources of news for the republican and nationalist communities is the O6 for many years. Anyway the basis of the agreement is that these sources are 1, used as fact unless there is a source which contradicts the informaton, then 2, if there is contrasiting then its is attributed and finally 3, if same information can be found from what other editors deem to be a more neutral source then the reference from say An Phoblacht, [[Troops Out Movement]] etc then the references from those sources is removed and replaced with the new source. regards--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 12:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::: Ok. That seems fair enough. Thanks. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 19:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::::And just what "persuasion" are you labelling me with VK? ;-) This is one of the articles we could apply the rationale to, the referencing could definitely be improved. Its a pain in the arse doing it though, which is why I haven't yet. [[User:Stubacca|<font color = "green">'''Stu'''</font>]] [[User talk:Stubacca|<font color = "green">^{''’Bout ye!''}</font>]] 08:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::: Hey Vk. I wonder if you could shed any light on some issues about Gaughan. Do you know if his conviction was on terrorist-related charges or just criminal charges (and by that I mean explicitly, obviously the motivations of the prosecution may have been political, even if the charges were explicitly criminal). Secondly, it appears from his hunger strike demands that he was never awarded special status, can this be confirmed? [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 18:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::To answer 1. I dont know is the answer as for 2. he may have had it at the very beginning of his internment but definately didnt at the end.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 19:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

==Michael Gaughan==

Thanks for your message. Two points: Firstly I have indeed read WP:RS, and Noraid is a textbook example of a questionable source. To quote: 'A questionable source is one with no independent editorial oversight or fact-checking process, or with a poor reputation for fact-checking. This includes websites and publications that express political, religious, anti-religious, or racist views that are widely acknowledged as extremist.' Noraid is therefore fine as a source for Republican perceptions of Michael Gaughan, but as a source for a NPOV description of British force-feeding methods, or the political impact of the hunger-strikers it is entirely useless, being about as partisan and unbalanced as it is possible for a source to be.

Second point: I am concerned about the use of the term 'Volunteer' for IRA members on Wikipedia. To me this seems to be favouring the IRA POV (that they are a legitimate army and therefore entitled to be addressed by their ranks) over the British POV (that they are criminals/terrorists). The neutral description would seem to me to be 'members'. I'm guessing that this has come up before: is there any discussion or guideline that you could point me to? Thanks.--[[User:86.31.225.153|86.31.225.153]] 22:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:1, Have you got any proof that the Noraid article has a. "no independent editorial oversight" b. "no fact-checking process" or c. "a poor reputation for fact-checking." - actually if you read the articles on their website that totally debunks that issue. 2. If you read the article [[Volunteer (Irish republican)]] you will understand that its a rank. If consider members of the British Army to be terrorist, murderer or criminals (which many people do) would that negate that fact that they held a rank in that organisation no matter how lowly they would consider that organisation or rank?--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 22:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

::1)Noraid claims on the front page of its website to be 'the voice of Irish Republicanism in America'. Nothing wrong with that - but it clearly means it is partisan on the subject of Irish Republicanism. Its entire purpose is to support the Irish Republican POV, not to be a neutral conduit of balanced information about Ireland. It does not claim to be independent in the way that the New York Times or the Sydney Daily Telegraph would claim to be when writing about Ireland. This does not mean that everything in it is POV or incorrect, just that we cannot rely on anything in it to be NPOV. 2) The difference between the British Army and the IRA for Wikipedia purposes is that the British Army is, de facto and de jure, the army of an internationally-recognised state with control over its territory, recognition from its neighbours and the UN, and subject to international law. None of this applies to the IRA, which is only recognised as an army by its supporters. This is true even if you consider members of the British army to be criminals and murderers - they are, objectively, an army in the legal sense: it is this that entitles them to be known by their ranks.--[[User:86.31.225.153|86.31.225.153]] 22:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

:::1. Neutrality is a quality that is in scarce supply with regards the issue of NI, and to claim that a Unionist paper like that Daily Telegraph is a paragon of neutrality speaks volumes to me. Also neutrality does not preclude a source from being reliable per [[WP:RS]]. 2. The point I was making is that like it or not that the IRA has systems, ranks as well as an[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRA_Army_Council Army Council], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IRA_Chiefs_of_Staff Chief of Staff], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRA_Quartermaster_General Quartermaster General],[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Northern_Division_of_the_Irish_Republican_Army Divisions], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_North_Antrim_Brigade Brigades] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_South_Armagh_Brigade] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_IRA_East_Tyrone_Brigade], North and South Command etc in its [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRA_Structure#Organisation organisation] - it exists we all have to deal with it.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 22:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

== Re: Names. ==

Thanks. Was just about to leave you a message saying well done with the work you've done to the Vol. Michael Gaughan article. Keep up the good work. [[User:Derry Boi|Derry Boi]] 20:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

:Cheers a chara, [[Frank Stagg|Vol. Frank Stagg]] is next up.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 20:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

::I added some info the Frank Stagg article earlier, also sorted the sources on [[Special Category Status]] and removed the tag.--[[User:Padraig3uk|padraig3uk]] 10:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Cool.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 10:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

==Dia duit==

Go raibh maith agat a chara, conas tá tú inniu? [[User:Scalpfarmer|Scalpfarmer]] 10:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:Ta me go mhaith - failte romhat i do cumann a chara.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 10:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

::Sláinte chugat. Cárb as duit? Is as Dún Dealgan mé. [[User:Scalpfarmer|Scalpfarmer]] 10:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

==Prisoner of war category==

I'm not sure this category is appropriate. It should probably be discussed before being inserted into all IRA articles. I'll maybe start a conversation at the [[WP:IWNB]]. [[User:Stubacca|<font color = "green">'''Stu'''</font>]] [[User talk:Stubacca|<font color = "green">^{''’Bout ye!''}</font>]] 10:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

:I'll stop for now. Crack on with the discussion.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 10:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

::Started it at the IWNB. [[User:Stubacca|<font color = "green">'''Stu'''</font>]] [[User talk:Stubacca|<font color = "green">^{''’Bout ye!''}</font>]] 10:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Tom William's ==

Hello Vintagekits, could you look over my edits? Seen it on the project page as needing work. Regards--[[User:Domer48|Domer48]] 20:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

==That Article==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Vintagekits/sandbox] has it. Let me know when you feel it's ready for prime time, and I'll undelete the article [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 23:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

== Mairéad Farrell ==

As I already explained to you, Member/Volunteer is not an option. Please revert. --[[User:John|John]] 00:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:I've explained to you the [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-02 IRA 'Volunteer' usage|ruling of the mediation cabal]]. Now if you want to start a new mediation cabal then crack on but your not going to bully me.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 01:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::Can't see anything there that justifies your position. Tell you what, I'm getting tired of your incivility as well. --[[User:John|John]] 01:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::You keep shouting about incivility - I havent been uncivil - just because you dont like the point I am putting across doesnt mean I am being uncivil.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 01:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Hi again Vintagekits. Can you please explain how the ruling justifies always capitalising the word "volunteer"? According to our MoS this is wrong. I'm looking at the sentence "Lower case "v" should be used for the time being." Thanks in advance. --[[User:John|John]] 18:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::No a lower case v wont be used in the mean time - read the mediation cabal ruling and then read the article talk page.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 18:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::I was quoting from the cabal ruling. I already quoted you the MoS section. I have lots of patience but it isn't infinite. --[[User:John|John]] 18:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::::Hey VK.. just step it down a bit man. I just noticed this on my last go round on WP before tying to catch 120 winks or so (got a killer bug and currently feeling like a steamroller ran over me..) Let me read the section and see what's going on and we can see where we need to go on it. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 18:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::::No probs Fozz. The cabal stated that the capitalisation of Volunteer should be further discussed on the talk page, it was then agreed that it was to be capitalised. P.S. hope you get better soon mate--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 18:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::::::VK, this is what I'm seeing. Remember two things, A) That I'm looking over this quickly, and B) I'm not as sharp as I normally am, anyway. I'm gonna have to agree that John looks correct so far. I'll provide my reasoning in a new section below. Remember, I don't have the experience that you guys have with this whole thing (read a good article on sports as it pertains to the situation, I should send you the link someday when I can find it again.) [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 18:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Clinton Picture ==

You might want to back that up with some evidence.{{unsigned|Fermanagheditor}}

:I am asking you a question. also - please sign your comments.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 01:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::I dont know anything about signing comments as im new to wikipedia and I wont be signing this comment.

::I see you have got yourself a bit of a negative reputation here on wikipedia thus my reason for deciding to ignore and delete any future comments from you.

::P.S wikipedia should be respected. Its been very benefical for me and I and im sure many other users would appreciate a bit of respect from you.{{unsigned|Fermanagheditor}}

:::So despite banging on about [[WP:AGF]] you are blatantly failing to adhere to this and also convieniantly ignoring the issue of copyright violation - interesting.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 01:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I have uploaded the pictures under 'my own work' and have stted on ALL pictures that i took he myself so is there any point in e answering any queston when the answer is on the image ta?

--[[User:Fermanagheditor|Fermanagheditor]] 03:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:still no very civil but at least you are signing your posts so thats something.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 02:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::This new user uploaded a bunch of images and tagged them as his own work. Unless you actually have evidence that he did not take this pictures, you MUST assume good faith. Why? If he's going to lie about it the first time, he'll lie about it the second time, too. Therefore, asking for a "confirmation" is a waste of time (if he's not being truthful) and rude (if he is being truthful). Now I know you don't want to spend your days wasting your time ''or'' being rude - so your best bet is to think of something else to do - like finding outside evidence that the images are copyvios - or complimenting the new user on his helpful contributions. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] 02:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Two points - 1. I did say he did I asked him to confim if he did take the shots, 2. an admin has deleted the pics cos he obviously had doubts about them. I did assume good faith but as you can see if you look through the editors recents edits that he is acting a little irrationally!--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 02:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

==My reading of the MedCab case==

'''Consensus on IRA member and volunteer'''

'''Where the initial definition occurs in the lead section, it should firstly be stated that a person is a member of the IRA. The term volunteer should then normally be mentioned. Lower case "v" should be used for the time being. In the main text of an article the word, volunteer, is free to be used, but this has to be judged in each particular instance to achieve maximum sense and good style. It should not be used rigidly and other terms such as "IRA member" can also be used or any other appropriate reference. Different terms can be interspersed, and may vary from article to article.'''

(Signed agree) Vintagekits 17:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything after that that would indicate disagreement with the MedCab results. And I tried to look for it, man. Hope you take this in the spirit offered, and to see where the other side is coming from. Off to bed, then.... [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 18:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:[[Talk:Volunteer_%28Irish_republican%29#The_capital_.22V.22_or_little_.22v.22_debate|here mate]], the reason that I agreed to the cabal resolution was that this issue was to be discussed further. The two main protagonists on either side were myself and Logistic and both of us agreed that it was to be a capital V.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 18:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::Your individual agreement with another user, while meritorious in a way, does not for a moment override the MedCab decision or Wikipedia's Manual of Style. I can't think why you would believe that it could. If you look one section down on the talk page you refer to you can see a reasonable summary of the position from Tyrenius. Please make sure you adhere to it in future. Thanks. --[[User:John|John]] 19:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Nonsense, ask Tyrenius, he was the one that stated that we should agree that between us what the issue of the capitalisation should be. YOU ADHERE TO IT!--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 19:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Can you show me where Tyrenius gave you and another user permission to decide consensus between yourselves on a usage that contradicted both MedCab and MoS? No offence, but I find that very hard to beleive. --[[User:John|John]] 19:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Why dont you post a messege on his talk page if you require clarification. I feel like I may become uncivil relatively soon, so I am going to disengage.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 19:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) That's fine. I don't think I am getting anywhere in discussing your behaviour with you directly so I intend to take it up with SirFozzie as you are supposed to be on parole. Best wishes, --[[User:John|John]] 19:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:No one has had a problem with me -except you, and shocking you were the one that blocked me - you are bullying me, you have done for some time and I am pretty sick of it. What you want me to do is bow down you whatever you say at every turn and if I dont you say I have been uncivil - which I havent. I would actually appricate if you never posted on this talk page again and stayed away from me as you seem to be the main root of the trouble that ever comes my way. I mean all this in the strictest wiki sense. regards--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 19:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

== Advice ==

Hello Vk. I'm going to offer a bit of unsolicited advice here, which you are entirely free to ignore, of course, but I hope you will at leat think about it. I wonder if you ever consider why you seem to find yourself almost perpetually in conflict with other editors? Of course, you certainly edit in controversial areas, and that is obviously part of it, but there is more to it that that. I edit on controversial areas all the time, but generally get on pretty well with most other editors.

Consider an editor makes a few comments about something that are perfectly civil and appropriate [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Michael_Gaughan_%28Irish_republican%29&diff=prev&oldid=143838155], immediately you strike an aggressive an accusatory tone [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Michael_Gaughan_%28Irish_republican%29&diff=next&oldid=143838259], report the editor as a sock to an admin [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ASirFozzie&diff=143840661&oldid=143839320] with no good evidence whatsoever. For some strange reason SirFozzie appeared to have taken your assumption as Gospel and indef blocked this user on the most flimsy of circumstantial evidence. This is the most egregious failure of [[WP:AGF]], starting a chain reaction leading to a terribly unjustified block. This would be bad enough, but when it eventually gets sorted out and the blocked editor - perfectly civilly - notes your role in this mess [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AVintagekits&diff=144074453&oldid=144026110], you don't apologise, nor to you even acknowledge your actions. What you do is delete the comment with a rather incivil "be gone". [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AVintagekits&diff=144222228&oldid=144171251]

My point is that to be a successful Wikipedian, we have to address other editors with a basic level of respect and civility, whether they agree with you on any specific issue or not. This editor afforded you that respect and in response you have treated him very poorly indeed. This is a perfect example of why you meet conflict at every turn here. I don't know the reason for it, whether it is just your attitude towards the purpose of the project, or whether you don't see a problem with it, but this sort of constant borderline incivility ''is'' problematic. Each comment or act in itself may seem insignificant, but it appears to be continual and the sheer weight of conflict is a huge energy sink for those editors drawn into it. In the past you have argued you are simply responding to what you see as incitement from other editors (cf. John in the section above), but I can't find a single incivil word or act from {{user|Hegertor}} to justify this response (apart from the fact you are convinced he is a sock of someone you had a run in with in the past).

So, my request to you is twofold. Firstly please seriously consider [[WP:AGF]] and use it. Sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry is always outed in the end (as you are painfully aware), so there is no need to act on rash accusations without proof. Secondly, can't you just be a bit nicer to people? Would it make you less of a man to respond to to Hegertor's reminder with, "thank you for your comments, they are duly noted", then delete it (as is your right)? Because your perpetually anatagonistic tone is counterproductive to both you and the project and it will only be tolerated for so long. Thanks for your consideration. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 18:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

:Rather one sided view but I that your point. If you had to dealing with the literally 100's of socks of RMS then you would understand - obviously Sir Fozzie thought the same and he did unblock him but still had concerns over the account. I still believe Hegator is a sock if not of RMS then of someone else - all you need to do is read his first three edits and if that doesnt convince you then I dont know. Additionally how come I've never had any conflict with anyone over any of my boxing articles? strange that! Anyway point taken. --[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 18:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

:: Actually I have my own pet banned troll that has, literally, hundreds of socks (see [[:Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Light current|here]] and [[:Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Light current|here]]), so I know exactly what it is like. Some have taken a while to confirm though, because its really important not to block unless you are convinced. Blocks are not punitive, therefore there is no good reason to block if there is no immediate threat to Wikipedia, or you are convinced it is a banned/blocked user.

:: Remember it is not against policy to have a number of accounts, nor is it against policy for an experienced editor to disappear and reappear under a new account. In fact I'm reasonably sure an erstwhile colleague of yours who left recently has done exactly that, but that is his right to remain anonymous. So whether Hegertor has edited previously is not really an issue, even if he is a previously blocked editor, so long as he edits constructively and civilly now, is it really a problem? If Hegertor is some persistent troll, then his true colours will be revealed in time and he will be dealt with. In the meantime, this is where [[WP:AGF]] comes in.

:: Anyway, thanks for considering my comments in the manner they are meant. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 05:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

== Re: NI Infobox Template ==

Why is the template saying the Union Flag is the official flag and then not including it? I've replied to your comments about the FAI League of Ireland on my talk page. Regards. -[[User:MichiganCharms|MichiganCharms]] 21:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

:Because its not the flag of Northern Ireland, if you are interested in contributing to the discussion with regards this topic please for to the talk page of the [[Northern Ireland]] article.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 21:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

==Boxing==

Clearchoice here - Thanks for the welcome. I'm an ex-boxer myself...interesting pages you've put up. I'm no expert on Wikipedia so thanks for your offer of assistance!{{unsigned|Clearchoice}}

::No prolem mate, if you need any help or guidance just just me a shout.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 11:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 11:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== NPA ==

Vk. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Irish_Wikipedians%27_notice_board&diff=prev&oldid=144672255 This] is unacceptable. You need to [[WP:COOL]] off now and take a break. If you repeat this sort of language I will block you per the terms of your probation. Please chill and come back when you can discuss matters without resorting to personal attacks. You will not be warned again. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 21:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

:What are you going to do about his provokation. I was the one behind the compromise from the start and trying to bring editors together on this issue and then he thinks he can talk to me like that!--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 21:47, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

== Terry Magee ==

Hi, Look, I'm afraid you're wrong on this one. Betws is not part of Ammanford (there's a river between the two). I could give some very precise references for Terry's address but I'm not sure he'd want this personal data posted so prominently. As you said, you don't know the area. I live here. I appreciate the situation is confusing but believe me, many people use 'Ammanford' as shorthand for this whole area which is why so many references give it as his home town. [[User:Ewen|Ewen]] 11:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:I dont doubt the information is correct, I would wouldnt be surprised in you know Terry very well and I am sure what you are saying in correct and he lives in Betws - however, the two references say he lives in Ammanford. Wiki works on verifability not truth - please read [[WP:V]]. If you can get a source per [[WP:RS]] that counteracts the two existing sources then I would be happy to look at them. regards--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 11:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::Well, in the reference I gave [http://www.ammanfordfirestation.org.uk/FundRaising/Tm%20Run/Tm%20Run2.htm] it does state that he lives in Betws (26th OCTOBER 2000 - THREE OF SEVEN "TERRY MAGEE ...is due back to his home in Betws...") and given that the postal town for the whole area is 'Ammanford' then it's not a contradiction to find references saying he lives in Ammanford when to be specific he lives in Betws.

::[[User:Ewen|Ewen]] 11:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:::Listen, like I said I dont really care where the guy lives - Boxrec says - Ammmanford and so other references say "Known famously to those in Ammanford for is out standing commitment to the community" - but if he lives in Betws crack on and stick it in. It doesnt bother me at at.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 12:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

==The current situation==

The system does work, if you let it.. just have to be patient.. I keep telling you and domer that. :) [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 21:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:I hear ya!!--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 21:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

==You have been Blocked==

VK, I've asked you to keep a cool head and walk away when you get in these situations. No getting the last word, just walk away, Unfortunately, you have crossed over the line. I don't CARE what other people are saying to you at some points. You need to be the bigger man in these situations. I told you that if you let the system work, it works. You didn't here. I'll see you tommorrow. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 22:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

:Fair enough, I wont be uncivil and say what I think of John, looks like he's got his wish and his bait has caught its prey. I will be gracious and take it on the chin, oiche mhaith a chara. Tiocfaidh ar la!!!!--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 22:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

== Tobermore Again ==

Contact admin for me doing what? Moving what Tobermore means and is derived from in one of Northern Ireland's minority languages to the section (Location and Name Origin) following on straight after the introduction? I was just stopping unneeded repetition and cutting down on the clutter in the introduction, hence the creation of the Location and Name Origin section.

You can't say i was trying to erase your Irish identity from the page especially as i put it in the following section and since i myself put the Irish meanings of Tobermore and Calmore into the article in the first place. If your edit was politically motivated as some of your edits on articles have been in the past, i would like to ask you to please stop with political POV edits. [[User:Mabuska|Mabuska]] 19:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

:I am not pushing a political POV and do not appricate the accusation - I have been very fair with you in the past and have assisted you when you were a new user and dont appricate this breach of [[WP:AGF]]. It is standard practice to have the Irish name of places throughout Ireland followed by the Irish version of that name. You unecessarily removed this without any reason given or any discussion opened. Also when did I say that ypu were ''trying to erase your Irish identity''?? Also I never edited the article I dont understand how or why you can say ''your edit was politically motivated as some of your edits on articles have been in the past, i would like to ask you to please stop with political POV edits'' - can I request you read both [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:CIVIL]] before you continue editing.--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 20:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

::I'll only refute by saying that i said at the start of what you (partially) quoted ''If your edit''. I said IF. I wasn't saying that it WAS politically motivated but IF. Funnily enough you ommitted the IF from your quote which included every other word in the sentence. So you can't say i was saying that you where definately 100% politically motivatedly editing articles. I said IF which implies, that you maybe or maybe not editing with political motivation. There is no malice in that insinuation, only a raise of an eyebrow as you have previously edited other articles with a POV that can be interpreted as politically motivated. I don't feel that raising an eyebrow to such a matter is a breach of [[WP:NPA]] or [[WP:CIVIL]] [[User:Mabuska|Mabuska]] 21:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

:::I am getting pretty tired of your unfounded accusations. Have you read the policies that I requested you did?--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 21:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

::::I quite clearly explained my comment in my above response and on the point of those NPA and CIVIL articles, where you not recently banned for incivility. If an admin thinks i am in breech of those articles then i will accept it and won't protest. And pointing out POSSIBLY politically motivated POV edits isn't a crime or in breech of Wikipedia standards - rather it is something that i assume Wikipedia would look into seriously to ensure neutrality. [[User:Mabuska|Mabuska]] 21:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

:::::Yer bang out of order actually, I left you a perfectly polite messege regarding the [[Tobermore]] article and you come on here with all sorts of unwarranted accusations. What politically motivated edits have I ever made to the Tobermore article or when have I been uncivil to you and what makes you think you can be uncivil to me?--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 21:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

==A Request==

As a conscientious editor concerned to improve Wikipedia, you might like to signify your assent to participate in Community Enforced Mediation regarding articles about Ireland, Northern Ireland and its people and groups by signing up [[User Talk:SirFozzie|Here]].If you have any questions on what it would entail, please do not hesitate to ask SirFozzie on his talk page or via email.

Basically, VK, what this would be for is to get all the disagreements out, and start hammering out a set of rules (1 RR, as we discussed, except on ALL sides.), and higher level of civility. Basically, it's to stop the pointless back and forth sniping (on both sides).. get people focused on improving the encyclopedia instead of spending all their time doing and undoing each others work. It's worth a shot, at least. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 14:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

:Yes/No? Sorry VK to kinda push this, but we're getting about a week on this, and I haven't heard from you on this. I'm also getting pinged on a couple comments you're making.. And while in general, even folks on the other side have said in general you're getting better.. there's still areas apparently where I need to work with you. Shoot me an email if you have a free moment, I am exceptionally busy today at work, but I will work with you anytime. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 17:14, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

== Tyrenius' talk page ==

Reply [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ABastun&diff=146321597&oldid=146321058 here], but again, apologies. [[User:Bastun|<span style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif">Bastun</span>]]^{[[User_talk:Bastun|BaStun not BaTsun]]} 14:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

== Replaceable fair use Image:Bernard_Dunne5.jpg ==

[[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|32px|left|Replaceable fair use]]

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# Go to [[:Image:Bernard_Dunne5.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to add {{tlx|di-replaceable fair use disputed}}, '''without deleting the original Replaceable fair use template'''.

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If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified how these images fully satisfy our fair use criteria. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on <span class="plainlinks">[{{fullurl:Special:Contributions|target={{PAGENAMEE}}&namespace=6}} this link]</span>. Note that fair use images which could be replaced by free-licensed alternatives will be deleted 7 days after this notification, per our [[WP:FUC|Fair Use policy]]. If you have any questions please ask them at the [[Wikipedia:Media copyright questions|Media copyright questions page]]. Thank you.<!-- Template:di-replaceable fair use-notice --> [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 09:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

== Help ==

Thanks for the offer of help figured out what I was trying to do if stuck again is it ok to ask you for assistance? [[User:BigDunc|BigDunc]] 14:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

== Naughty words ==

Please would you be consistent in your position and agree the position with BB: [[Jean McConville]] was '''not''' murdered but, in reference to Gibraltar, "Whats desparate times - the unarmed ASU were surrendering and then murdered.--Vintagekits 08:26, 25 July 2007"...<span style="border:1px solid lime;color:green;">Gaimhreadhan ^{<font color="brown"><small>(kiwiexile at DMOZ) </small></font>}[[User_talk:Gaimhreadhan|<font style="color:green;background:lime;">talk</font>]]</span> • 17:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

:Is this necessary, this could have been brought up on the article talk page, It looks like your trying to harass editors you disagree with, I think it would be better if you refrained from this.--[[User:Padraig|padraig]] 18:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

::Appearances can be deceptive

::VK knows why I don't bother to e-mail him, and this inconsistency of wording applies on more than 100 separate article pages - to raise it on each individually really '''would''' be harrassment!

::This really is not academic since we need to harmonise and make consistent across the project the use of "Naughty words". Thanks for alerting me to your point of view....<span style="border:1px solid lime;color:green;">Gaimhreadhan ^{<font color="brown"><small>(kiwiexile at DMOZ) </small></font>}[[User_talk:Gaimhreadhan|<font style="color:green;background:lime;">talk</font>]]</span> • 18:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

== what in the name of fuck are ya blockin me for now? ==

thats all - this place is bullshit - I've done hey-haw!--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 01:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

== Blocked ==

Vitagekits. I have blocked you for 31 hours for persistant low level incivility, unconstructive editing to make a point, and inflammatory soapboxing. This block is longer because, as was explained to in the terms of your parole for meatpuppetry, subsequent blocks will continue to get longer and longer as the communities patience wears thin. The specific reasons for this block are threefold:

* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mair%C3%A9ad_Farrell&diff=prev&oldid=147002094 Comments] such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Mair%C3%A9ad_Farrell&diff=prev&oldid=147002971 these] are a perfect example of the low level incivility that pervades your comments to editors with whom you disagree.

* In [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antoine_Mac_Giolla_Bhrighde&diff=prev&oldid=147117386 this] edit you reverted a whole raft of good [[WP:MoS]] corrections simply because they were made by another editor you do not like. If there was content in there you disagree with, make the specific edit, do not wholesale revert others who are attempting to clean up articles. Worse, however, you labelled John's edits as "VANDALISM" when they are [[WP:VANDAL|clearly not]], as you are well aware.

* Finally, and most damning, is [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Semtex_set_Ireland_free&diff=prev&oldid=147115433 this edit] and edit summary. These sort of comments ''have no place whatsoever'' in Wikipedia. The insinuation is crystal clear and the comments betray exactly how you see fellow editors, with whom you are supposed to be working in collaboration, not conflict. I was extremely close to issuing an indefinate block for that last edit. But this really is your last chance with me. I will inform your mentor about this block and discuss it with him. Obviously you are free to request an appeal by the normal channels if you think this block is unwarranted.

[[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 01:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

:::go and fuck off Rocket ya wanker - yer a wanker - I've always thought you were and now that I'm lashed I couldnt give a shit and will tell ya - yer a wanker - i'd bust yer nose wide open if I'd have ever met ya but you'be and yer Fergus McCann wankers have never been anywhere near Glasgoew never mind Ireland in 50 years so I wont take anything you have to say serious - that why you lick the arse of the hun chuntss on here like the usual wanker that pretend that they are admin but they are biased chunt and you prop them up so you are actually worse then them - anyweay fuck of you traitor bassa dob lovein chunt!--[[User:Vintagekits|Vintagekits]] 01:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

::::: Get some sleep, sober up and I'll await your apology in the morning. [[User:Rockpocket|<font color="green">Rockpock</font>]]<font color="black">e</font>[[User_talk:Rockpocket|<font color="green">t</font>]] 01:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

::::::Ya'll indef block me before I apologies to a self hating dob loving chunt like you - yer a wank and a traitor bassa - period - fuck you!!! yer a scumbag - I've a 1.000 to fill my place - a stick pn the huddleboard and celticminded will be place you you'll be hoiunded - yyou've suported those orange chujntd for long enogh and its about time you persoonally have had a backlash ya chunt