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I'm surprised the title has been changed to fit a mainly Brazilian POV name. In any case, the google hits I get for "Paraguayan War" are 71,500, whereas the "War of the Triple Alliance" receives almost 4x the amount of hits 274,000. Based on this evidence, the page should be returned to its former NPOV and most common English title of "War of the Triple Alliance". Best regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 23:38, 23 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I quick google search show 1.500.000 results for "War of the triple Alliance", while 1.200.000 for Paraguayan War. Paraguay also had a war against Bolivia (The Chaco War). How is that war less "paraguayan" than the previous war. That name was and is mainly used by Brazil, translations of their material retain the naming, everywhere else is either "The War of the Triple Alliance" or "The War against the Triple Alliance". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.23.74.167 (talk) 09:52, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The following excerpt should be removed: "This industrial and military growth required some contact with the international market, but Paraguay is and was a landlocked country. Its ports were river ports, and Paraguayan and other ships had to travel down the Río Paraguay and the Río Paraná to reach the estuary of the Río de la Plata (shared by Argentina and Uruguay) and the Atlantic Ocean. President Solano López conceived of a project to obtain ports on the Atlantic Ocean: he probably intended to create a "Greater Paraguay" by capturing a slice of Brazilian territory that would link Paraguay to the Atlantic coast."

The reference "Brandon Valeriano, "A Classification of Interstate War: Typologies and Rivalry." Article based on talk given March 17–20, 2004 to the International Studies Association in Montreal. File available at [1], accessed December 30, 2005." is broken.

A quick google search return this: http://tigger.uic.edu/~bvaler/ClassificationWar%20SPSA.doc [Google search removed because of URL filters]

Where this paragraph reads: " Likewise, the Lopez War involved intervention in a civil war by the different parties, but at the same time Langer (1972: 848) recognizes that Francisco Solano Lopez’s father and previous President of Paraguay “has asserted Paraguayan territorial claims against Argentina and Brazil…” and that his son “desired territory and perhaps envisaged a Greater Paraguay.” Langer (1972: 848) concludes that,“The ambitions of Lopez, Brazilian intervention in Uruguay”… [Lopez’s support of the other faction in Uruguay] and unsettled territorial claims …brought about the war.” "

The author bibliography says : Langer, William L. 1980. An Encyclopedia of World History, 5th ed. Boston: Houghton Mifflin.

The author uses three separate statements by Langer to draw a conclusion. The second statement is both an assertion "he wanted territory" and speculation "perhaps envisaged a Greater Paraguay" by Langer, the third asserts that Lopez ambitions along with Brazilian intervention started the whole mess. Lopez "ambitions" now including un-proven speculation.

Furthermore the Sixth Edition of" Langer, William L. An Encyclopedia of World History, BOSTON: HOUGHTON MIFFLIN COMPANY, 2001 NEW YORK: BARTLEBY.COM, 2002 has no mention of this. But it says: "López [Carlos Antonio] relaxed Dr. Francia's isolationism, hiring foreign technicians, engineers, and artisans to build up his military. But the neighboring countries still refused to recognize Paraguay's independence. Rosas, the Argentine dictator, closed the Paraná River to vessels bound to Asunción. In 1849, tensions intensified, and López prepared for war. Brazil and Uruguay, both in conflict with Rosas, recognized Paraguay. After Rosas's fall, the Argentine Confederation recognized Paraguay's independence and its right to free navigation (1852)."

There were serious concerns about armed conflict but nothing on a "Greater Paraguay" master plan. The whole concept is ridiculuos, there simply was no manpower for ocupation, few roads and most transport was fluvial. When Lopez attacked the brazilians it was at the north of the country not at the east. There was no way to occupy and resupply troops in a such circunnstances. Also there would be no need to pass through argentinian territory if Lopez wanted to conquer the zones on the east.

There is simply no reliable reference to this "Greater Paraguay" thingy. And there is no reasonable way to theorize on such a plan. Lopez was no good militarily but wasn't an complete idiot either.

I could not find a 5th edition, so I can't say the quotations from book are wrong. The 6th edition either remove them or they were never there. Also the author presented this in a paper with little more evidence and in a non neutral poit of view, trying to promote his paper.

I'll wait some weeks and then I'll remove the paragraph and refence to the "Greater Paraguay" issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.23.74.167 (talk) 11:13, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I missed the move and would have commented, to the best of my knowledge it is almost exclusively known as The War of the Triple Alliance in English. I've never seen the term Paraguayan War and its a term that could easily be confused with the Chaco War. I would have opposed the move and wonder with another RM is in order. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Books written about the war use the name "Paraguayan War" as can be seen The Paraguayan War: Causes and early conduct and The Paraguayan War and even on wargaming such as Wargaming the Paraguayan War - 1864-1870. How many Triple Alliances were there? Countless. The name "Paraguayan War" is far more unique. The Chaco War has never been called "Paraguayan War". Regards, --Lecen (talk) 16:28, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The google books search demonstrates that "War of the Triple Alliance" is 4x more likely to be used than "Paraguayan War". Your claim, Lecen, that "Paraguayan War" is "far more unique" falls as a personal opinion. Added that your original premise relied on Google Books, which as demonstrated by my post in this section (the first one), actually favors "War of the Triple Alliance". Given that your original premise was false, that makes your conclusion (and thereby the move) erroneous as well.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:53, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but I'm not convinced by Lecen's argument here, the Paraguayan War as a title has similar problems with the fact that there is more than one. The term War of the Triple Alliance is the predominant term in the English language. How many "War of the Triple Alliance" are there? If you look at the terms quoted above, whilst there may have been many Triple Alliances, invariably the actual war is not knonw by that name. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Could you point me out a single conflict which is also called "Paraguayan War"? Triple Alliance, however, there are various. Books written about the Paraguayan War mostly prefer the use of this name, not "War of the Triple Alliance". There is a reson too: all other previous wars fought in the region which are directly connected to it have similar names, such as Cisplatine War and Platine War. The use of geographic name instead of a political name is indeed preferred. I'd like to ask if any of you has the intention of actually improving this article or all you want is a change in the name? --Lecen (talk) 17:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ [7],[8]. And I challenge you to point to another conflict referred to as the War of the Triple Alliance. Thank you. Wee Curry Monster talk 18:31, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't like your tone. I had a lot of work bringing Pedro II of Brazil and Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias to Featured Article standard. I also brought Platine War to Good Article standard. All of them colsely related to this article. It was also I the one who added pictures to this article as well as to Francisco Solano López. After I saw the comments in this talk page I was hoping I would get some help here but I was wrong. I'll leave others reply. --Lecen (talk) 18:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Shall I take it with that comment you're acknowledging my point that there isn't another conflict referred to as the War of the Triple Alliance? Further you do not dispute that Google Books demonstrates it is more common. Shall we take that as read? I would close by noting that Glaswegians speak plainly and suggest you don't read nuances into my comments that don't exist. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, WCM has at no point in this discussion made any offensive tones against you Lecen. I, as a Latin American historian, value your contributions to the WP project (bringing articles to FA standard is not an easy task); and WCM surely also appreciates your contributions (of course, I have no intention of patronizing him, but in any case he has not dismissed your relevance as an editor). Nonetheless, it would be best if you demonstrated your position by: (a) presenting another war called "War of the Triple Alliance" and (b) demonstrating that Google Books actually supports your position. If you cannot provided either one of these points, then the optimal solution would be simply for you to return the name of the article to "War of the Triple Alliance." And, yes, that is essentially all that is being argued at this time (nobody is challenging your other edits to the article).--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 19:40, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This seems just like another editor who's thinks he owns wikipedia -Ilhador- (talk) 20:23, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Both are apparently common names and reasonable titles; it's just a matter of deciding between two good alternatives. "War of the Triple Alliance" returns about 164,000 hits on Google Books[9] while "Paraguayan War" returns over 57,000[10] However, recent sources seem to favor "Paraguayan War" slightly; WOTTA gets 2550 hits on Google Books since 2000;[11] while "Paraguayan War" gets 3190.[12] Additionally, I get 808 hits[13] on Google Scholar for the former, compared to 1,250 for the latter.[14] If anyone wants to move the page again, it needs to go through another move discussion.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't like the tone expressed by a few here (not you, Cuchullain), specially after what Ilhador said. I'm asking everyone to keep a high level on this discussion, please. --Lecen (talk) 20:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to reiterate that a key policy on wikipedia is WP:AGF and I would suggest you don't read nuances into comments that were never intended. Please lets keep this a civil discussion. Wee Curry Monster talk 21:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cuchullain, a factor you're not taking into account is that in the vast majority of other languages the war is known as the "War of the Triple Alliance" (Spanish and French, for example). Also, taking into account the recent sources does cause a case for concern per WP:RECENT (which, though it mainly applies for news articles, it can also apply for these kind of discussions). In the historical sense, the term "War of the Triple Alliance" by far exceeds "Paraguayan War," which even on recent terms is barely more used than the previous. Perhaps in the future this article will be rightfully titled "Paraguayan War," but Wikipedia should not be the one to advance or impose such a motion.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 22:04, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not because of how many sources use the name, but merely because, as you said in your own words, it is "a mainly Brazilian POV name". Since you're a Peruvian, your eagerness to change the name of this article (which you never contributed before and I doubt you ever will) is merely because you see the name as it is favored by Brazilians only. Not correct. As I said earlier, and Cuchullain was kind enough to provide sources, books focused on the war prefer to use the name "Paraguayan War" and thus avoid any mistake with so many other Triple Alliances in history, such as in World War I and World War II. For this reason it has become far and far better known as "Paraguayan War". The name "War of the Triple Alliance" itself has issues, mainly because it sounds like it was a war caused by an alliance. The name "Paraguayan War", as the names Platine War and Cisplatine War are neutral, based solely on geographical reasons to use the name. --Lecen (talk) 22:27, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All I keep seeing from you are rants and unfounded accusations (the tone of WCM, my nationality,...what comes next?). I provided sources as well, in the first post of this section, and yet you conveniently ignored them for the longest time possible. You keep to ignore the central issues here which include:

1. The original move of "War of the Triple Alliance" to "Paraguayan War" was done under false premises.
2. Historical name of the conflict vastly outnumbers "Paraguayan War" in favor of "War of the Triple Alliance".
3. WP:OR claims of "other Triple Alliances in history" without demonstrating any other major conflict called "War of the Triple Alliance."

Given these points, your lack of response to them, and the number of people suggesting it, I request a move of all "Paraguayan War" material to "War of the Triple Alliance".--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 23:20, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• I closed the last RM and don't really care which title the article is at, but I thought I'd note a few things because this keeps popping up on my watchlist. 1) If you are trying to say that the name "Paraguayan War" is POV, then you need some sources to back up that claim. 2) While google books counts are good indicators, they can be big differences depending on who is searching; it's best to use a ngram. In this case it does show that "Paraguayan War" is slightly more common. 4) Spanish and French sources carry little weight, as WP:AT specifies English sources (after all, we are writing in English). 5) Recent sources are obviously preferable to sources that are, say, 100 years old. 6) Lecen, please stop making accusations about other editors' motivations. 7) The previous RM was conducted properly. 8) Regarding your request, Marshal, you need to start a requested move (instructions are on that page). Best to you all, Jenks24 (talk) 03:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jenks, I think that's very helpful. In response to a comment above I'd like to add that the name of the war in other languages is irrelevant if there's a common name (or names) in English. This appears to be a choice between two solid, demonstrably common alternative names for this subject in English.Cúchullain ^t/c 03:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another problem with "Paraguayan War", which was already noted before, is that other "Paraguayan Wars" actually do exist:

• Paraguayan War of Independence ([15]), which ngram doesn't recognize for some reason ([16]). Ngram not recognizing it is worrysome as it may mean that it is including it to the "Paraguayan War" list (which would make it erroneous) or ignoring it (which would make the ngram system erroneous as well); I think the first one is more likely.
• Bolivian-Paraguayan War ([17]), also ignored by ngram ([18]).

In an attempt to fix the problem, which seems to be one resulting from the search, I used "The Paraguayan War" (a much more exact term than the ambiguous "Paraguayan War"; the ambiguity a problem also relevant to Wikipedia), and that resulted in the following: [19]. Based on that ngram, "War of the Triple Alliance" is more common than "The Paraguayan War".

• In conclusion: The problem with ngram in this case is that "Paraguayan War" is an extremely ambiguous term that can apply to any other conflict Paraguay has been involved in (and even cases where the search engine finds terms like "Paraguayan War Office"). "War of the Triple Alliance" is much more exact and only refers to a single conflict.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 03:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Leave this be. A quick look at Triple Alliance will show that there is great chaos in using that as part of the article's name. Alarbus (talk) 04:52, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The same argument is repeated time and again but, despite the many "Triple Alliances" that have existed in the world, only one "War of the Triple Alliance" exists. Similarly, just as there is only one country named "Paraguay" in the world, several "Paraguayan War" have existed (including the Bolivian-Paraguayan War and the Paraguayan War of Independence). As such, while "Paraguayan War" is the ambiguous title, "War of hte Triple Alliance" is the one with the specific meaning.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 05:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're ignoring the fact that naming the article after an ambiguous term will lead to ... wait for it... more ambiguity. Most will believe it a reference to a European war under your preferred title. Alarbus (talk) 05:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument is WP:OR. If you can provide a reference that validates your claim, then and only then can you rightfully claim that the term "War of the Triple Alliance" is ambiguous. On the other hand, I have provided evidence which demonstrates that "Paraguayan War" is so ambiguous that even Google ngram gets it confused with other events.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 06:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR is about articles, not talk pages. And, no, you don't get to determine what I may rightfully claim; that's just amusing. Alarbus (talk) 06:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't really want to get into a debate here because, as I've said, I really have no opinion on this. But your analysis of the ngram is faulty. The reason "Paraguayan War of Independence" and "Bolivian-Paraguayan War" aren't "registered" on the ngram is because they are so rarely used (7 gbooks results for "Paraguayan War of Independence" and the other war is commonly known as the "Bolivia-Paraguay War"). Also, it is lopsided to add "The" to "Paraguayan War", but not to "War of the Triple Alliance". If you add "The" to both (see here), Paraguayan War is more common. Again, though, if you really think it should be moved you need to start a requested move. Jenks24 (talk) 08:40, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I often use ngrams to illustrate the point but it didn't work too well in this case. The problem with simply using Paraguayan War is that it also brings up false positives from the "Paraguayan War of Independence" and "Bolivian-Paraguayan War" or variations thereof. ngrams need to be used with great care. I tried using parentheses to eliminate the false positives but found I got no results instead.
  • I would also comment that the assertion readers would assume this is a European War is false. I'm Scottish and I've only ever seen this referred to as the War of the Triple Alliance in British books that I have on the conflict. The alleged confusion with Triple Alliance is a red herring in my opinion. It is more confusing that this article appears to be using an uncommon name in respect of English language sources. Wee Curry Monster talk 09:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The term "Paraguayan War" does not appear to be uncommon. In fact, if ngram is to be believed, the terms are about equally common in books published since 1980.[20]--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"I'm Scottish and I've only ever seen this referred to as the War of the Triple Alliance in British books that I have on the conflict." Then you're going to the wrong library or bookstore. UK Amazon has 72 books about "Paraguayan War"[21] and only 17 books about "War of the Triple Alliance".[22] By the way, U.S. Amazon has 61 books about "Paraguayan War"[23] and 17 books about "War of the Triple Alliance".[24] So, this means that the average British and American have far more chance to stumble on a book about the "Paraguayan War", not about the "War ofthe Triple Alliance". Wee Curry Monster, you should change your bookstore of choice. --Lecen (talk) 14:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

--- Lecen, your attitude in this discussion (particularly towards WCM) is really getting annoying. Don't take this matter as a personal crusade, so please calm down. Now, regarding the alleged confusion of "Triple Alliances", I know for a fact that in the United States historians prefer the term "War of the Triple Alliance" exactly because "Paraguayan War" can be identified as other wars in which Paraguay has been involved. With this in mind, and given WCM's opinion, your claim that "War of the Triple Alliance" is an ambiguous term is erroneous. Previously, Lecen accused me of having a Peruvian-bias (not sure how that even makes sense in this discussion), but I took the time to find sources which validate my claim that "Paraguayan War" is a Brazilian POV name. Here are the results:

• Robert Levine, The History of Brazil: the War of the Triple Alliance (1865-1870), known in Brazil as the Paraguayan War Page 64).
• Roland Robertson and Kathleen E. White, Globalization: "Dramatized by certain emblematic events, such as what is known in Brazil as the 'Paraguayan War'" (Page 240).
• Sing C. Chew and Robert Allen Denemark (editors), The Underdevelopment of Development: the Paraguayan manufacturing economy, which was devastated by a bloody war known in Brazil as the Paraguayan War (Page 160).

I believe this confirms that "Paraguayan War" is a Brazilian POV term. Another example to make in this case is comparing how each title (Paraguayan War, War of the Triple Alliance) would fare as disambiguation pages. While "Paraguayan War" would easily serve as a disambiguation page for three conflicts (Independence, WOTTA, and Chaco), "War of the Triple Alliance" would be a poor disambiguation page as no other major conflict in world history has ever been called the "War of the Triple Alliance."--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 15:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The disambiguation issue doesn't really wash, for either title. As Jenks24 mentioned above, the term "Paraguayan War" does not appear to be used for any other war with any frequency.Cúchullain ^t/c 15:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even if we considered that "Paraguayan War" is mildly ambiguous, it still remains as such. On the other hand, "War of the Triple Alliance" is not ambiguous in any way or form. That is a key difference between both terms.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:00, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're not hearing me. I'm saying it doesn't appear to be even "mildly ambiguous". As far as I can tell no other conflict is ever called the "Paraguayan War".--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:34, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

• Paraguayan War → War of the Triple Alliance
• Paraguayan War casualties → War of the Triple Alliance casualties
• List of battles of the Paraguayan War → List of battles of the War of the Triple Alliance

– "War of the Triple Alliance" was the original name of the article. "Paraguayan War" is an ambiguous term that can be confused with other wars which involved Paraguay (Particularly the Paraguayan War of the Independence and the Bolivian-Paraguayan War), and it seems to fit a Brazilian POV on the matter (while not greatly significant, in Spanish and French the conflict is also called "War of the Triple Alliance"). You can read more about this, and the counter-claims, on the discussion above this requested move. MarshalN20 | ^Talk 15:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Amazon UK has 72 books about "Paraguayan War"[25] and only 17 books about "War of the Triple Alliance".[26] By the way, Amazon USA has 61 books about "Paraguayan War"[27] and 17 books about "War of the Triple Alliance".[28] So, this means that the average British and American have far more chance to stumble on a book about the "Paraguayan War", not about the "War of the Triple Alliance". --Lecen (talk) 15:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Funny that you mention Amazon. I've seen the Hutchinson book ("The Paranai") repeated several times, as well as Kohn ("Weep, Grey Bird"), Codman ("Ten Months in Brazil"). There is also non-related books, such as one on capoeira, which I doubt the Paraguayans and Brazilians were practicing in the conflict (though it would have been quite amusing). In other words, the Amazon argument is pretty weak.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, as nominator.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:14, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In case you haven't noticed, I added on both searches all kind of formats (hardcover, paperbook and kindle). Which means that there are still more books, and on different versions, about the Paraguayan War. P.S.: You can't vote. Read the rules on Wikipedia:Requested moves: "Note: Nominators should not add a separate support !vote, as the nomination itself qualifies as a !vote. Nominators may, of course, make comments and otherwise participate in the discussion." --Lecen (talk) 16:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're not making sense. I still don't see how you think Amazon is a reliable stance from which to argue. Regarding the vote, me writing "support" doesn't disqualify the argument.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, follow the nominator.---Ilhador- (talk) 17:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment While I'm not going to just oppose outright - both appear to be accepted and common names for this conflict in English - I think the nominator's basic arguments are faulty. First, "Paraguayan War" is not ambiguous - the term doesn't appear to ever refer to anything else. As mentioned before, "Paraguayan War of Independence" is an uncommon term, and not ambiguous with this title; while the "Bolivian-Paraguayan War" is not called just the "Paraguayan War". Second, the fact that the name "Paraguayan War" appears in sources on Brazil (the examples listed above are not) doesn't mean it reflects a "Brazilian POV", and at any rate it doesn't matter if the term is neutral and widely used, as this one is. Third, it also doesn't matter what the war is called in other languages if it has a common name in this one; this is the English Wikipedia.Cúchullain ^t/c 17:23, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Support Per nom, I don't believe the current name is POV and such comments are unhelpful. It would more correctly be termed a minority term as used in Brazil. Google shows the predominant term in English is "War of the Triple Alliance". I would also request that ngrams are used carefully due to the vulnerability of false positions from the "Paraguayan War of Independence" and "Bolivian-Paraguayan War". May I conclude with a plea to keep the discussion amicable. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:40, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]