Talk:University of California, Riverside: Difference between revisions

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(I archived all 82kb of the previous talk page, after finding no recent topics that had not devolved into uncivility or pointlessness.)

–Tifego^(t) _{04:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)}[reply]

The StudentsReview.com stat needs to go for multiple reasons.

• The sample size is 40 students. It's self-reported data as well, and thusly not accurate enough for Wikistandards. You can't cite a messageboard, you can't cite a forum like this. Putting this up is like quoting ApartmentRatings.com. Additionally, with the recent substantiated claims of sockpuppetry, it's clear that we cannot trust a user-submitted site. The use of multiple identities could--and likely has--tainted Student's Review.com

• The statistics listed on the site show a pattern of inaccuracy. They claim that UCR has an average ACT of 14. Clearly, that is not true and is contradicted by UCR admission statistics. I don't even think you can get into a UC school with a score that low. UCRGrad responded that this is because not everyone submits their ACT score, if this is the case then the site contains a major data flaw that prevents accuracy in the stats. A reader who follows that link is immediatly presented with a statistic that is clearly not true and thus undermines our article.

• The site still has an Application deadline of 2004. It's 2 years outdated.

• Even if it were acceptable to use information from the site, the authors who have done so, did it selectively. The majority of the school's ratings are in the B range--none of which has been mentioned in the article. If it is so imperative that we mention hate crimes near campus, we must pursue this angle with equal vigor. Since it's current form is misleading and lacking context, the statistic must go.

I have provided adequate reasoning for the removal of the statistic. I'm sure the majority of the users here back them. Thusly, do not revert it until you've addressed these concerns. If additional data is not entered to even the playing field--show both the positive and the negative, it cannot even begin to be considered as NPOV. That aside, the site's very nature does not meet Wiki standards.

Thank you TheRegicider 04:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the StudentsReview.com stats must go. A self-selecting user-submitted population with sample size of 40? Not exactly reliable information. Dandan 04:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The argument here about StudentsReview.com data is problematic for several reasons. 1) Sample size of 40 is appropriate. When Princeton Review sends out surveys for each school, how many responses do you think they get back? 40 is about right. Secondly, when US News sends out its own surveys, they don't even get a return of 40 for each school! 40 is also "generally" enough to apply many statistical tests, provided the raw data is obtainable. Thus, sample size ALONE, is not a valid argument.

2) Most UCR students don't take the ACT (they take SAT). Thus, OF the students that took the ACT and responded to the StudentsReview.com survey their average was 14. This makes perfect sense. It is likely that students who did poorly on SAT, took the ACT for the off chance that they would score comparatively higher on the ACT (and boost their objective numbers). This is a common practice among low-scoring high school students. Thus, there really is nothing alarming about such a low avg ACT score. Again, it just means that OF the students that took the ACT and responded to the StudentsReview.com survey their average was 14. What it also does is provide background information on the respondents - by reporting average ACT, along with average age, SAT scores, GPA of survey respondents, etc. we get an idea of what the sample pool was. It is standard practice in observational studies (including surveys) to report this type of background information. Nothing about the reported average ACT invalidates the survey data.

3) You cannot argue that self-reported data does not meet wiki standards. By definition, ALL surveys that are not done by structured interview are self-reported. Wiki's restriction on message boards is only that a random person's post cannot be used as a reference. For instance, if a user writes "UCR is the smog-capital of the U.S.," you can't reference that users's post because it comes from a message board. That's different from a website-conducted survey of college students that is tabulated and reported. You may criticize the methodology as imperfect, but NO study is perfect. Survey is one of the weakest forms of scientific data collection, but it is still valid and acceptable.

4) If you look at the dates of when survey data was submitted, you'll find that they were added periodically over a period of several years - unlikely to be the work of a "sockpuppet." Furthermore, if you compare the survey data to other UC's, you'll find a UCR's data isn't really an outlier. I believe the data to be reasonably valid, but definitely reportable on wikipedia. UCRGrad 16:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you really suggesting that the Princeton Review has a sample size of 40 students? That's so ridiculous that I am without words. The data flaw alone invalidates this stat. If the SR was on top of things they'd get rid of the ACT data but they haven't. As it currently stands it claims the average score is 14. IT'S NOT TRUE. With that same flaw in mind the SAT, GPAs are tainted if a studented did not enter their score. As you've said, survey's are the weakest form of data. This article is jammed backed with info, we do not need to lower our standards to admit it. We've got plenty of stats painting an accurate picture, we don't need this one. Anyways, majority is clearly on my side--I imagine it will be as you're now without sockpuppets, so it will stay out. TheRegicider 17:55, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Read again: "When Princeton Review sends out surveys for each school, how many responses do you think they get back? 40 is about right." 40 for EACH school. That's about right. Secondly, your misread the site. SR.com doesn't claim the average score is 14. The site reports that 14 is the average ACT score of THOSE STUDENTS WHO FILLED OUT A SURVEY AND TOOK THE ACT. It is analogous to providing demographic data at the beginning of a population study - same thing. I explained this all above. Survey data is obviously less rigorous than a double-blind placebo-controlled study, but it does NOT mean that it is inadmissable on Wiki. Majority here does not necessarily mean correct. Keep in mind that your camp has not been formally examined for sockpuppets either. UCRGrad 20:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Majority may not mean correct, but keep in mind that "Those who find that their facts and point of view are being excluded by a large group of editors should at least consider that they may be mistaken". As for us not being formally examined, perhaps we actually have been (I don't know), but if you want to make sure and have reason to believe we should be, you might consider filing an actual request. –Tifego^(t) _{00:12, 2 May 2006 (UTC)}[reply]

What should we do about these statistics? From what I see from other schools, no other UC lists these statistics at all. For example, the "UCR in the bottom twenty among its top 361 for "Teaching Assistants Teach Too Many Upper-Level Courses",[10] "Professors Get Low Marks [for Teaching]",[11] and "Professors Make Themselves Scarce".[12]." also apply to UCLA if you look it up online -- but the UCLA wiki doesn't mention it. Should we mention Princeton Review statistics at all? Going by what other UC's are doing on their wiki, I would say not to. Listing a simple ranking a la US News & World Report should be sufficient. What do you guys think? Dandan 04:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but I think it's odd that the Princeton Review for 2004 is used in one part of the article and one for 2006 used in another part of the article. –Tifego^(t) _{05:29, 1 May 2006 (UTC)}[reply]

Princeton Review statistics should be mentioned because PR is a widely-recognized and respected resource for college information and admissions. Just because the UCLA article doesn't mention the PR book, does not mean it shouldn't be mentioned in the UCR article. The UCLA article is NOT the gold standard by which we base university articles on wikipedia - therefore it is largely irrelevant what is written over there.UCRGrad 16:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, using other UC articles as a benchmark is not valid because they are not the "gold standard" for how a university article should be written. The mere fact that US News reports detailed campus rankings and statistics demonstrates that these data are important. A well-written college article would include these statistics, and I would even suggest that the editors of the Cal, UCLA, etc. articles to include these data.UCRGrad 16:54, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dandan, please re-read what I wrote: "using other UC articles as a benchmark is not valid because they are not the "gold standard" for how a university article should be written." This is a point I want to emphasize. UCRGrad 18:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

first of all, please don't cut my statements up (i have edited them back into their original format); its rude. second, what is the gold standard for what a university article is and how come you get to decide what the standard is for UCR? the gold standard definitely can't your edits considering how many people regard your version as severely & negatively biased. all the UC's are part of the same system, why wouldn't their wikipedia show similar & standardised information? it IS relevant what the UCLA wiki article has, because all the UC articles should strive to include similar information and background. Dandan 19:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, it's standard practice here to insert responses at natural break points - you must be new here. Secondly, there is no gold standard for a university article. That's my point. I never said it was my edits (nor did I imply this). Finally, each UC article is edited by different individuals, each of whom (supposedly) are knowledgable about the school they are writing about. Since there is no unified editor or agreed-upon format, it is not possible to have a single "gold standard" university article. Keep in mind that just because other UC articles don't contain XYZ, does NOT mean that's the way it ought to be -- this is known as the "is/ought fallacy," something your committing here. UCRGrad 20:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After a brief inspection of the UCLA wiki article, I think that it should contain more detailed and standarized information, thus making it more encyclopedic! Insert-Belltower 01:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I figured out why one source reports 5 hate crimes in UCR vs. the Clery Act (federal) source, which reports none. The reason is that the Clery Act (federal) source only reports hate crimes that also fall under the following categories: Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter Aggravated Assault Forcible sex offenses Arson Negligent manslaughter Simple Assault

That is, only VIOLENT hate crimes (plus arson) are Clery Act-reportable. However, the more generous statistic also includes non-violent hate crimes. Thus, there is no discrepancy between the refs. UCRGrad 17:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. Yes, Melvyl is a computerized UC catalog of which library holds what. This includes a catalog of what medical references are held in what library. You can then order the medical reference you need from that library.

Exactly. It's not a medical reference itself. It's a conduit to "order" references from elsewhere. UCRGrad 23:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2. any substantial medical journal is available online.

Incorrect. Major medical journals have online access, but not all of them. Almost none of them are free to access. You are making assertions that you clearly do not have the background/experience/knowledge to make. UCRGrad 20:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

3. "classic" articles and important articles of historical nature are found online.

Incorrect. Classic articles tend to be older and are not, by definition, available in online form. You are making assertions that you clearly do not have the background/experience/knowledge to make. UCRGrad 23:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

4. it usually takes 1 day for a scanned copy to arrive. if you're a medical student, you probably won't be procastinating till the last second. and besides, if you're really in THAT MUCH of a hurry, driving to UCI's medical library takes an hour, while driving to UCLA's medical library takes 1.5.

Exactly. 1 day for an article to arrive. 1 hour each way (with light traffic) to drive to UCI's medical library. These are gross inconveniences. UCRGrad 23:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

5. i do argue they're UCLA medical students. their degree is from UCLA medical school. they go to UCLA's week long medical school orientation. if you look at any of their facebooks or talk to them, they will say they're a UCLA student.

Let me repeat: they ATTEND CLASS physically on the UCR campus. They PAY TUITION to UCR. Their UCR transcript contains the records and letter grades of their medical school coursework. UCLA is a "concurrent enrollment," and that's all. It is irrelevant if they attend a one-week orientation at UCLA or whether they "consider themselves" UCLA students. They become UCLA students once they TRANSFER to UCLA for MS3 and MS4 years, after which point they receive a UCLA diploma. Again: while they are at UCR for MS1/MS2, they are UCR students, plain and simple. UCRGrad 23:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

6. UCR does not have a medical school & the medical students that are part of the UCLA program have access to everything they need.

EXCEPT for a dedicated medical library. UCRGrad 23:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

... building a dedicated medical library and stocking it with highly expensive subscriptions to all the relevant medical journals in the world would be a remarkable waste of taxpayer money, not to mention utterly redundant considering the easy availability of such resources.

I completely 100% agree with you that building a medical library with expensive subscriptions is not financial feasible. However, this does not change the fact that the UCR medical studenst don't have such a medical library. UCRGrad 23:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

7. they have online access to all of UCLA's library resources. in the rare scenario that they need something that isn't available online, they can get it within a business day. and if they're really that desperate and can't wait a day, then sure, drive an hour each way to get there.

I will stipulate that UCR students can access UCLA's online content, however, if you only knew how few textbooks and journals were available online, not to mention how many articles from the early 90's were not converted electronically, you wouldn't be making these remarks. There is absolutely no substitute for having access to print copies. UCRGrad 23:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

8. what qualifications do YOU have to be considered an expert on this? who died and made you judge of all things medical education? and how do you know my background doesn't qualify me to speak on these matters?

Dandan 17:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Dandan, you clearly are not a medical student, otherwise you wouldn't be making statements like "classic" articles are available online or thinking that "oh, medical students probably wouldn't mind driving an hour each way to retrieve an article they should have locally." Do you honestly think they have two hours to "throw away" a couple times a week? I honestly think that you should divert your enthusiasm towards other parts of this UCR article that you might be better qualified to edit. UCRGrad 23:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From the UCR Biomed website, "The University Library at UCR has a collection of more than 1.3 million bound volumes, 13,000 serial subscriptions and 1,150,000 microfilms. The new Science Library, which houses the portion of the collection relevant to Biomedical Sciences, is conveniently located adjacent to Webber Hall. In addition, all campus libraries have ready access to the collections of other University of California libraries, as well as those of other institutions, making more than 15 million volumes available to all students. On-line computer literature searches are available to graduate students at the UCR libraries and in many individual laboratories. The Science Library provides access to numerous bibliographic databases on-line and on CD-ROM, including Biological Abstracts, Medline and Current Contents." http://www.biomed.ucr.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=77 Honestly, 'nuff said. The facilities available is good enough -- there's no particular need for you to insert your personal opinion here.

Perhaps you should stop wasting your time on personal attacks regarding my research experience. I've spent enough time on PubMed and enough years working in a lab to know how it works.

Now, if you're done trying to call me stupid, I'll try arguing with you one more time, even though history and confirmed sockpuppetry has shown it's really quite useless.

Character attacks really don't help substantiate your point. Nobody is calling you stupid. UCRGrad 02:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

1. Melvyl is not a medical reference. I never said it is. Melvyl is a conduit to get a copy of any medical reference that exists anywhere in any of the UC libraries. That's a pretty good conduit.

2. Of course medical references aren't free to access but UC's get subscriptions to them. UC students can access any online subscription that the UC system paid for (which is, in more accurate terms, a hellavua lot). and seriously, name me ONE medical journal of ANY relevance at all that isn't available online.

I will do even better. A 2005 article in the J Med Libr Assoc looked at faculty usage of online vs. print-only medical journals. Clearly, there were a substantial number of IMPORTANT medical journals found print-only, because the authors concluded: "Results of this study suggest, at this point, that faculty are still accessing the print-only collection, at least for research purposes, and are therefore not sacrificing quality for convenience." http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1082939&blobtype=pdf UCRGrad 02:14, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

at least for original biomedical research citations, which isn't exactly what most medical students would be accessing these journals for (especially not in MS1 & MS2). regardless though, the point is that they have easy access via interlibrary exchange & the internet, there is no need for a dedicated medical library. Dandan 02:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3. Give me an example of a classic/historical/field-defining paper that isn't available online. Dude, my immunology professor found Edward Jenner's cowpox vaccination papers from 1798 online. And if the medical student is researching some strange obscure disease that they MUST know the original disease description for, they would probably have at least a day's notice, which is enough time to get a copy of said strange obscure diseases' original disease description from some dusty archive in another UC library.

4. Gross inconvenience?! Gross inconvenience is the article not being available ONLINE.

5. UCR, not a medical school. UCLA, medical school.

6. So you want to complain about the lack of something that's not actually feasible?

7. Perhaps if you knew how many journals are available online, we wouldn't be having this argument. There is a substitute for having print copies. It's called, use the Print function on your computer.

8. What if I actually am a medical student? --;; How would you know either way? What exactly makes YOU qualified?

Dandan 00:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like you guys are going in circles here. My dear Dandanxu, most your statements are simply a repeat of what was said previously. In my opinion, the point about the the papers being online is weak because my previous point that was raised, that is: if all the papers are now online, why is it necessary to even have a physical medical library? The fact is that UCR does not have a DEDICATED library. The key word here is dedicated. Look up dedicated before you respond. It is fine with me if the science library mentioned, but it still must be pointed out of for the sake of full clarity that there is no dedicated medical library. Insert-Belltower 01:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

and why exactly is it necessary to have a dedicated medical library that, by UCRGrad's own admission, isn't feasible? Dandan 01:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, whether or not it is feasible to have a dedicated medical library is irrelevant. The fact remains that UCR does NOT have a dedicated medical library. This reflects the limited medical education resources available to UCR medical students, which reflects the fact that UCR lacks a dedicated medical school. I will address your other questions later. UCRGrad 01:53, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

UCR doesn't have a medical school. UCR doesn't have a dedicated medical library (though, as the Biomed website clearly states, all Biomedical Sciences resources are stored in the science library) and nor should it. What do you want, really? Let's grab a new building, move all the resources from the Science library into a new "Medical Library", and open it up to 48 students? UCR Biomed students have all the library resources they need from access to journals at the Science library, online access, and interlibrary requests from any other UC campus. Dandan 02:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

well... I think scientists in UCR deserve some credits.. this is what i came up

'UC Riverside is a research based university. In the past decade, UC Riverside has had leading numbers of faculty members named as fellows of American Association for the Advancement of Science among all institutions in the nation. As in 2006, 8 UCR faculty members have been elected to AAAS fellowship, highest among UC schools. '

http://www.aaas.org/aboutaaas/fellows/2005.shtml http://www.ucop.edu/news/archives/2002/april09art1.htm (bottom portion of the article)

Let me know if i counted it wrong.. "CTRL + FIND" YES, UCR is not a perfect nor a most selective school.. AS long as negative facts are expressed in a NPOV way.. i have not problem seeing them on the article. But it caught my attention by seeing someone tried so hard to object this credible school using words such as "909", "SMOG BELT", "University of Chinese Refugee".. i mean.. what's wrong? Those words are 100% opnion based.. why people hate it so much? This article was actually misleading people to believe that UCR is "IN FACT" the worst school in the world, which it isn't. come on.. give it some respect.. "CONTRIBUTIONS" claimed by some people, in my opnion, are just jokes. but i'm glad to see some progress going on.. and this is what Wikipedia is all about.. --bowbowx

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.224.50.16 (talk • contribs) .

A few things here: - I have no objection to adding AAAS numbers. - "University of Chinese Refugees" is offensive, and was removed from the article a LONG time ago. - Nobody reading this article will infer that UCR is the worst school in the world - dunno where you're getting this from. - "smog-belt" is an actual term, and it is referenced. UCRGrad 16:29, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

there.. this article is indeed, got lot better than before. Again, i don't mind mentioning negative facts in the article as long they are expressed in a NPOV way. while in the other hand, whitewashing is nothing but unnecessary --bowbowx

I'm not sure that it is was overly negative before? Insert-Belltower 01:11, 2 May 2006 (UTC) I'd like to add that just because an article, as this one, contains negative info, it doesn't mean it's biased one way or the other. Insert-Belltower 01:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]