Talk:Mass killings under communist regimes: Difference between revisions

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mass killings under communist regimes article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60Auto-archiving period: 40 days

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Warning: this article is subject to a 1RR limitation. Per the discretionary sanctions authorized in the Eastern Europe case, this article is subject to 1RR. Reverting more than one time in a 24-hour period may result in a block or a ban from this article and its talk page. All reverts should be discussed on the talk page. Editors wishing to make controversial edits are strongly advised to discuss them first.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

view · edit Frequently asked questions This section is here to provide answers to some questions that have been previously discussed on this talk page. Note: This FAQ is only here to let people know that these points have previously been addressed, not to prevent any further discussion of these issues. To view an explanation to the answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. General Concerns and Questions Q1: Why does this article exist? A1: This article exists because so far there has been no consensus to delete it. The latest AfD (2021) said that the Wikipedia editing community has been unable to come to a consensus as to whether "mass killings under communist regimes" is a suitable encyclopaedic topic. Six discussions to delete this article have been held, none of them resulting in a deletion: No consensus, December 2021, see discussion Keep, July 2010, see discussion. Keep, April 2010, see discussion No consensus, November 2009, see discussion No consensus, September 2009, see discussion No consensus, August 2009, see discussion Declined by creator 17:04, 3 August 2009 PROD 17:02, 3 August 2009 Created 17:00 3 August 2009 Related Talk discussions: [1] Q2: Why isn't there also an article for "Mass killings under _________ regimes"? Isn't this title biased? A2: Each article must stand on its own merits, as justified by its sources. The existence (or not) of some other similar article does not determine the existence of this one, and vice versa. Having said that, there are other articles such as Anti-communist mass killings and Genocide of indigenous peoples which also exist. This article has a descriptive title arrived at by consensus in November 2009. Related Talk discussions: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18]

Article milestones Date Process Result August 10, 2009 Articles for deletion No consensus September 1, 2009 Peer review Reviewed October 2, 2009 Articles for deletion No consensus November 15, 2009 Articles for deletion No consensus April 22, 2010 Articles for deletion Kept July 19, 2010 Articles for deletion Kept April 1, 2018 Peer review Reviewed

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Deletion discussions: Keep, 13 July 2010, see discussion. Keep, 13 April 2010, see discussion. No consensus, 8 November 2009, see discussion. No consensus, 24 September 2009, see discussion. No consensus, 3 August 2009, see discussion.

This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. History Start‑class Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article has been marked as needing immediate attention. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics B‑class High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles B This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Human rights C‑class Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles C This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Socialism C‑class Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism articles C This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Soviet Union: Russia / History C‑class Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union articles C This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Russia (assessed as Mid-importance). This article is supported by the history of Russia task force. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Death B‑class High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles B This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Mass killings under communist regimes article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60Auto-archiving period: 40 days

Can you please change "Mass killings occurred under some Communist regimes" to "Mass killings ocurred under Communist regimes"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.183.239.68 (talk) 16:29, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per a request on my talk page, I am removing the following page-level restrictions. Sandstein 21:46, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In application and enforcement of the Arbitration Committee's decision at WP:ARBEE#Discretionary sanctions, the following discretionary sanctions apply to the article Mass killings under Communist regimes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views): No editor may make edits to the article unless such edits are either minor edits as described at WP:Minor edit and marked as minor, reverts of obvious vandalism or an obvious WP:BLP violation, or have consensus as described below, and the edit summary contains a link to the talk page discussion establishing that consensus. Procedural details The rules at WP:BAN#Exceptions to limited bans apply to reverts of vandalism or BLP violations. (For clarity's sake, the removal or addition of cleanup tags, for any reason, are neither minor edits nor vandalism.) For the purpose of this sanction, an edit may only be deemed to have consensus if the following minimum procedural requirements are met: It has been proposed on the talk page, in a dedicated section or subsection, for at least 72 hours. In that section, the proposal has been either unopposed or at least four registered editors (including the proposer) have commented about the proposal. The proposal does not substantially duplicate a previous proposal that failed to achieve consensus, or seek to undo a previous change that did achieve consensus, if that previous proposal or change was made less than a month before the new proposal. The editor who makes an edit is responsible that the edit has consensus as outlined above. To prevent the risk of being sanctioned in the event that an administrator finds that the edit did not have consensus, any editor may ask on a community forum for an uninvolved administrator to determine whether or not consensus exists for the proposal. Such determinations are binding for the purpose of this sanction, but do not prevent consensus from changing by way of a new proposal. Administrators may ask for continued discussion if they believe that this would help consensus-finding, and they may weigh the arguments advanced in the light of applicable Wikipedia policies and guidelines in order to determine consensus or the lack thereof. Editors who violate this editing restriction may be sanctioned with escalating blocks or other discretionary sanctions per WP:ARBEE#Discretionary sanctions. In addition, a previously imposed WP:1RR restriction concerning this article continues to apply.  Sandstein  20:23, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mass killings were observed under some twentieth century Communist regimes. Death estimate vary widely, depending on the definitions of deaths included. The highest estimates of mass killings include not only direct mass murders or executions, but also lives lost due to effects of war, famine, disease and other factors, including deliberate mismanagement by the regimes. Terms used include "mass killing", "democide", "politicide", "classicide", and a broad definition of "genocide." The higher death estimates range in the tens of millions, while some scholars, counting only direct government actions, use lower totals. In his summary of the estimates inclusive of indirect government acts, in The Black Book of Communism, Martin Malia suggested a total death toll of between 85 and 100 million people.

Is presented as a substantially shorter version of the current (bloated) first paragraph of the lead. Collect (talk) 23:01, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Both the current and proposed lead texts have a serious NPOW issues. Only a small fraction of sources devoted to mass mortality events in Communist countries combine all these events into one category, and name them "mass killing", "democide", "politicide", "classicide", etc. Majority of scholars do not use this terminology, so there is no possibility to reflect their point of view, otherwise it may be considered synthesis.

In addition, the Black Book is a highly controversial source, which by no means can neutrally summarize the subject. It must be excluded from the lead.

The statement "The higher death estimates range in the tens of millions, while some scholars, counting only direct government actions, use lower totals. In his summary of the estimates inclusive of indirect government acts, in The Black Book of Communism, Martin Malia suggested a total death toll of between 85 and 100 million people" is misleading, because it implies that 85 millions are attributed to direct government actions, and other 15 million are famine victims. That is obviously false, because majority of the "Communist mass killing deaths" are deaths from Chinese famine Soviet famine.

To fix that, I propose a different version:

Numerous mass deaths occurred under some twentieth century Communist regimes. Many of them were a direct result of repressions against real or perceived political opponents, whereas others were caused by war, famine, disease and similar factors, including deliberate or unintended mismanagement by the regimes. A number of scholar combine all these mass deaths under a single category using the terms "mass killing", "democide", "politicide", "classicide", and a broad definition of "genocide." The higher death estimates amounts to 100 million people, although the authors counting only direct government actions use significantly lower totals.

Paul Siebert (talk) 00:50, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Collect and Paul Siebert: I was involved with formulating the current version of the lede. I am not necessarily wedded to it, but I do think we require clarity on what problem we are trying to address. Is the lead really too long? I don't think so, but I'm willing to be persuaded. On the other hand, it's the controversial nature of the BBoC which requires us to mention it in the lede; a source which does not represent scholarly consensus cannot be used in Wikipedia's voice (and that is a problem with Collect's version, as it, unintentionally, I believe, makes it sound as though Malia were summarizing scholarly views, rather than views in the BBoC. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 04:56, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, the lead is misleading. There are many problems with it, I'll tell about two of them for the beginning. First, the Black Book cannot be used as a source, because it is highly controversial. There was a strong disagreement even between the authors of this collective volume and its editor, Malia. His introduction is the most problematic part of the book, and the figures (85-100 million) was among the most controversioal part of the introduction.

Second, even this, highly controversial introduction is interpreted in a highly misleading way: the lead says: "The higher death estimates range in the tens of millions, while some scholars, counting only direct government actions, use lower totals. In his summary of the estimates inclusive of indirect government acts, in The Black Book of Communism, Martin Malia suggested a total death toll of between 85 and 100 million people.", thereby creating a false impression that the figure of 85 million was obtained when the victims of indirect government acts were excluded. But that is simply a false statement.

Actually, more than a half of all victims of Communist regimes were famine victims, and most scholars, for example, O'Grada, who study a history of the most deadly famine, Great Leap famine, do not consider it mass killing. Moreover, the idea to combine all mass mortality events in different Communist countries into a single category is by no means universally supported by a scholarly community. Many authors see more commonality, for example, between Cambodian (Communist) and Indonesian (anti-Communist) genocides, or between what happened in Cambodia and Rwanda, not USSR, and so on.

Another totally misleading statement is: "A number of scholar combine all these mass deaths under a single category using the terms "mass killing", "democide", "politicide", "classicide", and a broad definition of "genocide."" Rummel, a creator of the Democide concept, did NOT combine MKUCR using the term "democide": his "democide" combines Stalinist mass killing, Nazi Holocaust and other events. "Genocide" is also a term used to describe MKUCR, because neither Great Leap or Great Soviet famines (more than 60% of total Communist death toll) are not considered a genocide, and so on. Not only this statement is a synthesis, it is simply wrong.

Actually, the article tells about the topic that was invented by the Wikipedians and is not recognized by scholars. To demonstrate my point, compare the article's topic with, for example, the Holocaust. There IS a full consensus about it among all scholars, everybody agrees what it was (with small variations; for example, some authors include Soviet POWs, whereas others do not). In contrast, MKUCR is a very poorly defined topic, and many scholars simply do not believe this is a single topic. In addition, Mass Killings UNDER Communist Regimes: what does it means? Do we include, for example all civil war victims (both opposing sides), or just one side? Actually, there is a huge difference between killings UNDER some regime and killings BY this regime. Frankly, I even am not sure if such a topic exists at all. If you try google it, you get mostly the pages that cite this Wikipedia article. The Google Scholar source gives just 8 results: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=%22mass+killings+under+communist+regimes%22&btnG=, and, again, one of these eight papers cites this Wikipedia article.

I think it is senseless to tell that similar search using such keywords as "the Holocaust", "Holodomor", "Great Purge", "Cambodian Genocide", etc gives thousands of results, because each of them IS a topic. The keyword "Democide" IS a topic too: it is a concept proposed by Rummel and supported by several authors. However, MKUCR is the topic invented by us, Wikipedians, by selective combining several concepts advocated by some authors who do not represent the whole scientific community.

I see two ways to fix a huge NPOW and SYNTH problem. First, the article should be converted into the list, and all content split among the Democide, Politicide, Genocide etc articles (each of which tells about some pretty well defined concepts). Second, it should be reorganized to make clear it tells about several concepts developed by few authors (Democide, etc), who do not represent a scholarly consensus on that subject.

I am very surprised to learn that such a pure example of original research and synthesis stays in Wikipedia for so long period of time. We must do something with that, because this case is extraordinary.

Paul Siebert (talk) 07:02, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Aware of the risk that I might open a pandora's box of issues that have already been debated many times before, I would still like say that: yes, the whole concept of MKUCR might be controversial, but it is nevertheless a subject that has been notable in many debates, even in academia. That does not mean that the concept is all fine and perfectly ok, but it means that at least it has a place on Wikipedia. Even if it is a synthesis. I don't see it as a matter of right or wrong, but simply a matter of explaining what this MKUCR concept is all about. And then supply the article with a discussion about all these cautions and problematic syntheses that you also mentions in your comment above. There are many sources of this critique and a few are already in the article as is. So all-in-all: Why not just improve critical parts? RhinoMind (talk) 15:31, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PS. Still, we would of course need to point to other sources of the MKUCR concept than simply The Black Book, otherwise the whole page could just redirect to the wiki-page on The Black Book itself. RhinoMind (talk) 15:40, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion was an attempt to make a readable lead. Those who are using this as yet another "delete discussion" are not going to reach a consensus now any more than they did before. The first thing anyone reads is the lead, which is supposed to summarize the content of the article. That is all I was doing. Opening up the "Communism killed no one in the Ukraine"-type of debate will not get us anywhere at all. Can we stick to the purpose of the lead and not get back into the (seeming) two hundred AfDs on the topic? The article is here, and the principle is that we make it readable first of all. If not, then shut the discussions down. Collect (talk) 15:43, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

By the way "estimates inclusive of indirect government acts" seems to me to indicate that the BB estimate includes indirect government acts and is thus entirely in line with the article statements. Collect (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the leed is the best place to start if anyone wants to improve anything in this article. If the purpose of the leed is simply to summarize the main points in the article (in which I agree), then the main article should be fixed first. And this main article has a plethora of issues. It was difficult to fix some of them, the system of request at Talk, approval, and then fixing, was broken and this was a main reason why the lock was lifted. The leed is of least concern, compared to the rest of the article. RhinoMind (talk) 15:56, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, RhinoMind (except about the synthesis part). I am fine with any of the proposed changes to the lead, but I would rather we did not focus on it and work to flesh out the body of the article first. To Collect, I also agree that we do not want to get into AfD discussions that we have already had (and resolved), but Paul has been gone for a while and deserves to be taken seriously. To Paul Siebert:

1) "the Black Book cannot be used as a source, because it is highly controversial" - I completely disagree because other reliable sources, such as Valentino, reference the Black Book and we all agree they are reliable sources. Saying it is too controversial to use requires substantial sourcing on your part to overcome the reliable sources that accept it as a legitimate contributor.

2) "Moreover, the idea to combine all mass mortality events in different Communist countries into a single category is by no means universally supported by a scholarly community." - Any sources that explicitly state this should have their views included in the article, but we cannot assume that because a scholar focuses their attention on a different topic that they oppose the idea of this topic. We would need a reliable source that states this explicitly.

3) "Rummel, a creator of the Democide concept, did NOT combine MKUCR using the term "democide"" - You can read his essay "How Many Did Communist Regimes Murder?" on his website here, in which he says "...Not all the democide totals I mention here may be complete...".

4) ""Genocide" is also a term used to describe MKUCR, because neither Great Leap or Great Soviet famines (more than 60% of total Communist death toll) are not considered a genocide" - I assume you made typos in here and meant to say that genocide is NOT a term used to describe MKUCR and neither of the famines ARE considered a genocide. However, there are sources (identified in the dumping ground page here) that do discuss the term in the context of a broader discussion of terms (often to explain why they don't think it applies).

5) "Actually, the article tells about the topic that was invented by the Wikipedians and is not recognized by scholars."; "In contrast, MKUCR is a very poorly defined topic, and many scholars simply do not believe this is a single topic. In addition, Mass Killings UNDER Communist Regimes: what does it means? Do we include, for example all civil war victims (both opposing sides), or just one side? Actually, there is a huge difference between killings UNDER some regime and killings BY this regime. Frankly, I even am not sure if such a topic exists at all." - As you know, the title of this article is a descriptive title because of the lack of a single consensus term among scholars, but it is not original research. Many of the sources include a section discussing the lack of a consensus on terms. We have a Terminology section in the article for that reason (which needs filling out - see the dumping ground page for a start on that) and that explains why your Google searches turn out as they do. The title "Mass killings under Communist Regimes" is a bit awkward, but it is functional, and similar in form to "Crimes against humanity under communist regimes", which is a scholarly work. I don't think the ambiguity of the word "under" is anything we need to be concerned about.

6) "Second, it should be reorganized to make clear it tells about several concepts developed by few authors (Democide, etc), who do not represent a scholarly consensus on that subject." - If you want a statement in the article to that effect, you will need to source it to a reliable source just as every other statement in the article should be. AmateurEditor (talk) 16:23, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Let's do it step by step.

1) Let's remember what exactly we are talking about. It is incorrect to talk about the BB as whole, because itis very inhomogeneous volume, it is a collection of chapters written by independent scholars supplemented by the Malia's introduction. Whereas many chapters (for example the Werth's one) are good, the introduction is very controversial. Some sources do use Malia's introduction, whereas many others (including Malia's coauthor, Werth) severely criticise it. If you need sources in support of that statement, I can provide them.Paul Siebert (talk) 05:02, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

After some reflection, I have gone ahead and implemented the version of the lead suggested by Collect. I do not see this as a final solution for the lead, but after reading it several times, I believe it serves to condense a very verbose paragraph without sacrificing detail. This does not in any way preclude further discussion on the issues of neutrality, and the specific issue of how to discuss the BBoC. Vanamonde (talk) 07:25, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed some edits have been made during last day: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes&type=revision&diff=840000941&oldid=839956333

Please, remember, the restrictions applied to this article require that all edits of that kind must be discussed on the talk page first. Can I please ask the editors who made these changes to self-revert and start a talk page discussion?

Paul Siebert (talk) 04:55, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Could you please point to the editing restrictions that this page is still under? Sandstein explicitly removed the restrictions in place since 2011, and those are the only restrictions of the nature you describe that I am aware of. schetm (talk) 05:10, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I myself started to doubt. The article was under 1RR restriction (see above) AND it was fully protected. It was unprotected recently, but I thought other restrictions are still in force. Maybe I am wrong, and ALL restrictions has been lifted. That seems a little bit odd, taking into account that less than one year ago this question was discussed, and the decision was to keep all restrictions and protection. It seems Sandstein unilaterally decided to lift all restrictions that doesn't seem totally reasonable, because it is unclear what happened during last months that changed the situation. We probably need a clarification from him.Paul Siebert (talk) 14:16, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I asked Sandstein about that. Let's wait what he says.Paul Siebert (talk) 15:21, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The "consensus required" restriction has been lifted, but I would strongly suggest that everyone continue to act as though it applies; in particular, I would suggest that unless a change is believed to be non-contentious, it not be made without discussion. I would also strongly recommend against further AfDs, and against "is this a valid topic" type of discussions. Otherwise, it is likely that we will end up with full-protection again very very soon. Vanamonde (talk) 07:27, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Eh, that is probably too restrictive rather if a change is reverted I'd suggest coming straight to the talk page and gain a consensus. (a la 1RR+consensus-required-before-restoration used in American Politics articles)Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:42, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• @Galobtter: possibly, but a 1RR restriction is also a recipe for a slow-moving multi-party edit-war, and god knows there's enough people here for that to happen. In any case, I cannot enforce this; I'm merely pointing out a likely consequence that nobody wants, and a means of avoiding it. Vanamonde (talk) 07:52, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Indeed, hence the consensus required before restoration, so that one edit cannot be reverted more than once, even if by different people..I know, that is a likely consequence and not an enforcement, I'm just spelling out an alternative that people can hopefully follow even if they don't follow consensus before changing anything major Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:03, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• For the record, 1RR+talk page discussion remains officially on the books for this specific article, as described here. schetm (talk) 04:42, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to remove all empty country-wise sections. This page is meant to be an overview, not an exhaustive treatment. Countries from where mass killings/deaths do not receive prominent mention in the literature probably deserve nothing more than a short mention here (where they should be worked into the prose) and a complete article elsewhere, which can be linked from here. Moreover, a number of the linked main articles are not directly treating this topic, and at the moment, these links are misleading. Vanamonde (talk) 07:56, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As long as they stay linked to this page, I'm fine with this. All of the links to these other articles should be retained, for the sake of the reader, to whom these links are exceedingly valuable. We must not forget the reader, even in the midst of contentious articles like this. schetm (talk) 15:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mass killings were committed under many Communist regimes in the twentieth century. Death estimate vary widely, depending on the definitions of deaths included. The highest estimates of mass killings include not only direct mass murders or executions, but also lives lost due to famine, disease and other factors, including deliberate mismanagement by the regimes. Terms used include "mass killing", "democide", "politicide", "classicide", and a broad definition of "genocide." The higher death estimates range in the tens of millions, while some scholars, counting only direct government actions, use lower totals. In his summary of the estimates inclusive of indirect government acts, in The Black Book of Communism, Martin Malia suggested a total death toll of between 85 and 100 million people.

I think this would be more appropriate, "some" makes it seen like mass killings only happened under a few, like two or three regimes, also when was effects of war counted among deaths? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedro8790 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The section below provides a criticism of Malia, which makes it incorrect to use this source in the lead, because it by no means reflects a scholarly consensus.Paul Siebert (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

From Sandstein's talk page discussion I conclude that he, assuming that the old conflict has died out, has lifted all restrictions, although the page remains subject to discretionary sanctions. However, I am afraid the major controversy around this article still exists, so I propose to use a scientific approach to avoid possible problems.

Per Aumann's agreement theorem, logically thinking persons inevitably come to a consensus about the subject that belongs to their common knowledge domain. That is not an assertion, but a mathematically proven theorem. That means, if we failed to achieve a consensus, it implies at least one of us is either incapable of thinking logically or dishonest (i.e. has some secret agenda and does not disclose their actual goals). Since I assume we all are good faith Bayesians, I believe we are quite capable of resolving all major disputes about MKUCR.

I suggest to start truly Aumann's discussion about the core issues of the article. To do that, every participant should explain clearly and exhaustively:

- their real intentions regarding this article; for example "I believe Communist was worse than Nazism and I want the article state about that clearly", or "I think criticism of Communism is unjustified, and I want the statement about Communism evil to be placed in a broader context", etc;

- the main sources their opinion is based on.

By providing an open and explicit description of all essential information each of us has, and by disclosing our actual intentions we create a common knowledge domain thereby making a truly Aumann's discussion possible.

Upon having read the article authored by Michael David-Fox (On the Primacy of Ideology: Soviet Revisionists and Holocaust Deniers (In Response to Martin Malia), Kritika: Explorations in Russian and Eurasian History, Volume 5, Number1, Winter 2004 (New Series), pp. 81-105), I realized how two main weaknesses of this article can be formulated. First, the current version of the article is written based on the concept of Generic Communism (which was explicitly coined by Malia). This concept defines Communism as "the common denominator of party movements founded by intellectuals. (Pol Pot's study of Marxism in Paris thus comes across as historically more important than the gulf between radical Soviet industrialism and the Khmer Rouge's murderous anti-urbanism.)" (I use the quote from David-Fox, who both summarized this concept and criticized its weaknesses). However, the article does not explain explicitly that the "generic Communism" concept is not a mainstream idea, which gives an undue weight to a single point of view, which is against our policy. A Second major flaw of the article is that it "does not mention the literature addressing the statistical-demographic, methodological, or moral dilemmas of coming to an overall communist victim count, especially in terms of the key issue of how to include victims of disease and hunger. In the context of the Soviet-Nazi comparison Stephen Wheatcroft insisted before the publication of The Black Book on the relevance of distinguishing between "purposive killing" and "deaths from criminal neglect and irresponsibility." In response to The Black Book, Hiroaki Kuromiya has criticized the results when "'indirect deaths' are indiscriminately lumped together with deliberate political killings." Again, I quote David-Fox's words that are quite applicable to the current version of the MCuCR article.

In my opinion, a cosmetic modifications of the article, for example, by adding reservations like "however, according to David-Fox .... etc" cannot resolve the problem, because the very structure of the article implies that "generic Communism + famine as murder" point of view is a mainstream view, whereas scholars like David-Fox represent a minority viewpoint.

I propose to fix this. To this end, I propose to start two separate discussions on two topics: 1. Generic Communism, and 2. The way famine and disease should be described.

As an act of a good will, I declare I will abstain from any editing of the article until a consensus is achieved (the article did not change for many years, so it can wait). I also expect (although do not demand it) other participants will do the same.

Does anybody want to participate?

The literature available to me tells that different Communist regimes are poorly connected to each other, so the authors who study them pay more attention to historical aspects and other factors to describe the events there. For example, many authors prefer to describe North Korean regime as neo-Confutian rather than Communist. The monographs about Cambodian Genocide outline at least two other factors (in addition to ultra-Maoist ideology) that caused killings: extreme Khmer nationalism (Khmers were desperately poor and rural, ethnic Vietnamese and Chinese were much more wealthy and urban, and Khmer's revenge tradition.

I think it would be correct to minimize the sections that contain any generalisations, leaving just a small paragraph describing the concept of Generic Communism, and create subsections devoted to different regimes (instead of not countries). For example, there should be no USSR section, but "Russian Civil War" section and "Stalinism" section (I believe everybody agrees Stalinism was totally different from pre-Stalin USSR and post-stalin USSR, and a mainstream point of view is there were no mass killings in the USSR after Stalin; that means we do not need anything else, although some information about Afghan war can be added).

Every section should contain a brief explanation of a historical context. It should also explain which concrete action of the regime caused the deaths. For example, it must be explained that mass killings in Soviet Russia during the revolution were partially a result of overall brutality of the First World War and partially the consequence of poorly organised land reform in tzarist Russia (this is a point of view of Nicolas Werth, one of the authors of the Black Book).

Regarding African countries, the difference should be made between the regimes that conducted Communist transformations and the regimes that just nominally declared it to obtain Soviet help.

That is not a full list of what should be done, but that seems to be a good starting point for the discussion.

Paul Siebert (talk) 21:30, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, the article must explain clearly that more than a half of all deaths that occurred under Communists were famine deaths, and majority sources do not describe them as "killings". A hisotrical context of each famine should be explained separately. It was not a standard policy of Communist regimes to organize famines, and majority of them were unintended consequence of regime's policy. A separate section devoted to the Great Leap Forward famine (without this famine, the list of Communist victims would look much less impressive) should explain that it was not the deadliest famine in Chinese history, that devastating famines regularly happened there, and the GLF famine was caused both by mismanagement (destruction of the statistical system) and the fact that the most affected region were traditionally vulnerable to famine. The point of view of O'Grada amd other experts should be duly represented (he is a much better expert than professional anti-Communists), and an explanation should be added that this famine was the last famine in Chinese history, because Communist authorities learned due lessons and took serious measures to avoid it in future.

A description of each famine should contain a discussion of the policy that cause that famine, and the discussion of intentionality. Thus, whereas a considerable part (not majority) of authors consider Holodomor a genocide, others disagree. Noone believes Volga famine or post-WWII Soviet famine were genocides, and majority of authors do not blame authorities in deliberate organising these famines.

Paul Siebert (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The current article treats the issues raised correctly. The concept of a lecture as to what consensus is, does not impress. Sorry but the extended proposals do not have my approval as such, and, I suspect, would not gain WP:CONSENSUS through any RfC. Collect (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please provide any logical argument besides WP:JDL? Paul Siebert (talk) 23:53, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Every single one of those famines were consequences of the policies of the regimes, if they didn't try to implement Communism, they would not happen.

The "Generic Communism" part seems to me to be more of the "it wasn't real Communism" argument, the same atrocities that happens in North Korea and happened in Communist Cambodia happened under every single Communist regime, political repression, food scarcity in the least cases and starvation in the worst cases, etc.

No offense, but it seems to me that your real intention is to minimize and excuse Communist crimes, and the phrase "professional anti-Communists" really gives away your real intentons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pedro8790 (talk • contribs) 00:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pedro, it's important that you assume good faith on the part of other editors, especially in such contentious subjects as this. While I wouldn't have chosen to use the words you referenced that Paul used, I have no doubt that he sincerely wants this article to be improved. And while his proposal doesn't have my !vote at this stage, his efforts are to be lauded.

This is the first time in over seven years that this article has been unprotected. I propose that, until and unless the situation here gets ugly, we abide by the standard discretionary sanctions on Eastern European topics. 1RR+talk page discussion remains officially on the books for this specific article, as described here. I have faith that the editors will rise above the old disputes and behave civilly and within our guidelines. schetm (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much Pedro for joining Aumann's discussion. Schem, he is doing exactly what I expected from you, guys. Pedro, you've just described my intentions as you see them, thereby putting your vision of my intention into the public knowledge domain. If we all continue acting in this way we inevitably will arrive to consensus.

Let me explain my vision. Imagine, Wiki article about The Holocaust says Hitler killed 12 million Jews, although the sources available to you say only 6 million were killed (which is true, by the way). Do you think I can blame you in whitewashing Nazism if you propose to replace the figure of 12 million with 6 million? Obviously, no.

Pedro, different regimes that claimed they were Communist killed a really big number of people, and I it is not my intention to defend, for example, Stalin. 5 millions or 20 millions - it is a huge number anyway. This regime was criminal, but to avoid such a tragedy in future we have to establish a real mechanism of it.

You write "The "Generic Communism" part seems to me to be more of the "it wasn't real Communism" argument" Firstly, let me point out that it is not my argument, this opinion was taken from a very good quality reliable secondary source. We must respect what it says. Second, it is tempting to blame Communism in all evils that happened in XX century. However, what if it was not the case? I mean, what if that was not the only reason? What if totalitarian dictatorships come to power for some objective reasons, and it is just a coincidence that they accept a Communist doctrine. What if next time some dictator will come, who will declare his open anti-Communism (by the way, that already happened once, remember? A small hint: that happened in mid XX century in one very developed European country, and this event literally decimated European population). Even now I started to notice that attempts to whitewash real Nazi criminals are being made, and the major argument is "yes, they did support Nazism, but they were fighting Communism, so they should be excused". Is it the result we want to achieve? The only way to prevent it is to tell a real truth, even if it is more complex, and requires more reading than just Courtois's introduction to the Black Book.

By the way, do you know that one of the reasons why The Black Book was written was so called "Vichy syndrome" some French intellectuals are still suffering from?

You claim "those famines were consequences of the policies of the regimes, if they didn't try to implement Communism, they would not happen." Pedro, Chinese famines were happening regularly, and some of them were more deadly (in relative numbers). Yes, this particular famine was triggered by Mao's mismanagement, however, nobody can guarantee similar famine would not happen if Kuomintang continued to rule. China was extremely poor (more poor than most African countries).

You say "the same atrocities that happens in North Korea and happened in Communist Cambodia happened under every single Communist regime", and you are absolutely wrong. The NK regime and its atrocities and Cambodian atrocities were totally different. There was no genocide in NK, and this society is a urbanized Confucian estate society; in contrast, Cambodian case is a chemically pure ethnic genocide (one ethnic group was killing another ethnic groups) in an egalitarian rural society. Cambodian type genocide would be absolutely impossible in Korea, and no juhce society could be created in Cambodia.

There were absolutely nothing in common between what happened in Stalin's USSR and PolPot's Cambodia: it the former, the government directed repressions against peasants to create a urban and industrial society, and repressions were not ethnic based, whereas in Cambodia urban population of different ethnicity was being killed by a rural population to perform radical deurbanization. I would say (and many sources say so), Cambodian genocide has more in common with Nazism than Communism. Even Chinese Maoists criticized Pol Pot for his radicalism.

Again, the only common feature all these events share is that the leaders claimed their adherence to one or another form of Communism.

That's enough for today.

By the way, all what I say is not my invention. I read that is very reliable sources, mostly in peer-reviewed articles, not journalist books or papers. All of that is something Wikipedia cannot just ignore.

All the best.

Looking forward to hear more arguments from you. Convince me if I am wrong. Paul Siebert (talk) 04:51, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Paul Siebert, I would strongly suggest that you stick to raising specific points of concern. Not only are your posts too long for most folks to read, they are likely to be construed as an attempt to dismantle the page, even if they are not. Raise a single issue at a time, and support your position with sources, please. I'd suggest beginning with the issue of using Malia in the lead. Vanamonde (talk) 05:39, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Vanamonde. I raised two specific concerns, these are the same concerns many reliable sources raise. First, the very structure of the article gives undue weight to a single point of view (a "generic Communism" concept), which is hardly a mainstream viewpoint. Second, and more specific is that the idea to present a total premature deaths under Communist regimes as "killings" is misleading, and some authors are pushing this idea to support a very specific idea (that Communism was greater evil than Nazism). In particular, only small fraction of famine scholars use the term "killing", "genocide", or similar terms to describe famines under Communists. There are debates over the question, for example, if Soviet famine in 1932-33 was genocide or not, but I am not aware of any dispute of that kind about Chinese famine: the scholars who study it do not use such terminology at all, and the absence of any debates looks like the idea that Chinese famine as a mass killing is being simply ignored by specialists who study specifically this question.

The following example demonstrates my point (it is a very artificial example, but it gives you an idea what I mean). Imagine WP has an article about statistics accident involving red cars, and the article says that red cars killed XXX people. And we also have a lot of publications about Ferrari cars, Toyota cars, etc., and these sources do not discuss a connection between color and accident statistics, and they prefer, for example, to discuss differences in steering mechanism or brake design as a main reason of accidents. What should we do in that case?

Again, before we started to discuss smaller problems, we need to talk about a general structure of this article. That will save a lot of time in future, and probably will help us to avoid many conflicts the editors had in past.

With regard to the length of my posts, the subject this article discusses is very complex, and if you want to edit it you must be capable of reading long texts. If you cannot read my posts, how can you read the original sources this article is based on? They are much, much longer.Paul Siebert (talk) 13:45, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Siebert You misunderstand, perhaps unsurprisingly. I did not say I would not read your posts; but most editors will not, and thus the lengthy of your posts almost precludes forging consensus for any proposal therein. I also didn't tell you to drop any of your suggestions above; I merely asked you to take them separately, and to make your points in a concise manner. I ask you once again to do this. Since you seem to be focusing on the famine question, maybe we start with that. Begin a new section, in which we may address the specific question "how do we treat famines?" Link your sources, and let's proceed from there. Vanamonde (talk) 13:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to start a serious discussion, and it requires some long introduction. Later, when we come to some preliminary agreement, my posts will become more brief.

I don't think it is correct to start with famines. The very structure of the article should be discussed first. I already created a subsection devoted to this (the previous section). When we finish, a famine issue will be much easier to resolve, because in the article that avoid unjustified generalizations, each famine will be discussed in a historical context. For example, in the "Stalinism" section two major famines will be discussed, and the question if Soviet famine (1932-33) was genocide will be discussed (the post-war famine is not considered mass killing by majority sources). In the "Maoism" section, Great Leap forward famine will be discussed, and the emphasis will be made on the works of famine experts (O'Grada and others), not on political journalism.

Changing the structure of the article will resolve not only famine problem, but most other problems, and no cosmetic changes can resolve anything.

We need to answer the first, major question:

"Since majority of literature discuss Communist regimes either separately (for example, only Stalinism, but not Khmer Rouge), or compare ONE Communist regime with ONE non-Communist regime (for example, Stalinism vs Nazism, or Cambodian genocide vs Indonesian genocide), how can we incorporate all these sources into the article without engaging in original research?"

My answer is simple: by reorganizing the article to avoid unjustified generalizations.

Do you agree, and are you ready to discuss that? Paul Siebert (talk) 15:06, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Regarding the sources, I can quote the David-Fox opinion (taken from the article cited above) where he reiterates the viewpoint made by other authors:

"In the context of the Soviet-Nazi comparison Stephen Wheatcroft insisted before the publication of The Black Book on the relevance of distinguishing between "purposive killing" and "deaths from criminal neglect and irresponsibility." In response to The Black Book, Hiroaki Kuromiya has criticized the results when "'indirect deaths' are indiscriminately lumped together with deliberate political killings." "

Even if we include these sources into the text and leave the structure of the article unchanged, it will look like these authors represent minority viewpoint, and the mainstream viewpoint is the one expressed by Rummel or Valentino. However, that is not the case, because one has to distinguish between political journalism and scholarly sources.

To check if I am right, make a simple experiment:

1. Make a google scholar search using "Great Leap Forward famine" [19]. The first ten results include, among others, articles authored by o'Grada, Sen, Devereux, and others. And these are the sources a neutral Wikipedian should rely upon if they decided to write the article about this subject de novo.

2. Do the same search using "democide" as a key word. You will get this: [20]

3. Now do this (democide + O'Grada) [21] Only TWO (very obscure) sources that mention a domocide concept cite O'Grada, which means this experiment demonstrates two "parallel Universes" exist, and one group of authors simply ignore the works written by others. In that situation, whom you will be trust more? When I have some specific disease, I would prefer to visit a narrow specialist, not a general doctor, right? Why a situation is different in this case?

Again, if we want to write a good article on that subject, we should devote a due attention to what real specialists write about that, and than to add a separate section to explain some authors see a significant commonality between these events (supplemented by criticism of those views).Paul Siebert (talk) 15:57, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No. And as this has been discussed a few times, I doubt iteration will affect consensus. "Original Research" does not occur when we list nations separately as to deaths without making any connections other than what the sources used state. The article, thus, contains no "OR". Collect (talk) 15:37, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, currently, the article does not contain significant amount of OR. It has a different problem, NPOW. An undue weight is given to a single viewpoint, and to fix it we either need to do OR (which is unacceptable), or to change the structure.Paul Siebert (talk) 16:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For those who worry about WP:NPOV, I suggest examining Anti-communist mass killings where the types of views being sought to be placed in this article are in full abundance. I fear that adopting the premises of that article here are far off the mark. Collect (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, Collect, I didn't find any source there that should be reflected in the MKuCR article. I don't think the views represented there are too relevant to the subject of our discussion. That Communists were being killed adds nothing to the subject we are discussing (except the fact that Communists killed during civil wars are also included into a "Communist death toll", because it happened under Communist rule).

By the way, Anti-communist mass killings is organized in a simple and straightforward way. It makes no undue generalizations. Indeed, anti-Communism is neither an ideology nor a political movement: both humanistic liberals and Nazi can be anti-Communists. From the point of view of Wikipedia it is pretty acceptable. The subject of that article is also pretty clear: it describes killing (literal killing, not famine, not disease) of those who call themselves "Communists" by those whose intention was to kill Communists. The primary driving force behind those killing was always clear: people who hated Communism killed Communists because they were real or perceived Communists.

In contrast, MKuCR's subject is a totally vague. Why did Khmer Rouge kill Vietnamese or Chinese compatriots? The books devoted to this subject specifically give three totally different reasons, and only one of them was "because Khmers were poor and others were rich". Why did Mao organized famine? Famine scholars conclude that happened because China was so poor that famine was a very common event, and any irresponsible step (especially an economic experiment it the country with destroyed statistical system) might lead to a major famine. Was that a mass killing? Majority of authors disagree. Was that done in purpose? Only few authors believe in that. Do these two events have anything in common? Majority authors doubt in that: Mao tried to accelerate urbanisation of his peasant country, Pol Pot was aggressively trying to de-urbanise Camboda. I am asking again the question formulated by David-Fox: is the fact that Pol Pot was studying Marxism in Paris sufficient to make any generalisations?

One way or the another, your analogy is not working.

-Paul Siebert (talk) 23:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, Collect, I've just realized what have you done. You explained your vision of my point of view, thereby adding a useful information to our common knowledge domain. Now I understand better what do you think about my intentions. Good. One more step towards consensus.

To dispel possible misunderstanding, I do not propose to convert the MKuCR article in something like Anti-communist mass killings. My plans are different: to move all generalizations into a separate section, to put every event in a historical context, to explain the mechanism of the onset of each mass killing, and to remove a combined figures from the lead. Briefly, that is how I see the article.-Paul Siebert (talk) 00:36, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What you have, indeed, done is to add much verbiage (27K characters in a short period) sans convincing others of the validity of your positions, which you have clearly enunciated often on this talk page. Other than your stated intention in the past to delete the entire article, which you have not iterated now, I know nothing about your "intentions", only what Wikipedia requires by policy. The purpose of WP:CONSENSUS is to find middle ground. Collect (talk) 10:12, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Collect, since you have mentioned our policy, let me point out that, whereas my posts are made with intention to improve the article, this your post is a comment on the editor. Which is against the policy. Regarding my intention, you misunderstand it. I propose (and was always proposing) not to delete the content, but to reorganize it.

Regarding middle ground, I am not sure you are right (WP:VOTE). Three outcomes are possible: you convince me, I covince you, or we may develop some new idea. So far, I see mostly "I object" from you (with minimal explanations). Have you been more collaborative, there would be probably no need in most of my posts. Paul Siebert (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"remove a combined figures from the lead." That isn't happening. Combined figures have been presented by scholarly sources (not the best scholarly sources, maybe, but still, folks with credentials). Ergo, unless you can provide evidence that those are fringe viewpoints, they need to be mentioned. Of course, those views have also received critique in weighty sources; those are, at the moment, still missing from the lead. But neutrality isn't about eliminating stuff that's been critiqued, it's about presenting all reliable views, duly weighted. Which, once again, means you (Paul Siebert) need to provide sources rather than lengthy explanations; else you're not going to get anywhere. I honestly don't know why I have to keep repeating this. Vanamonde (talk) 11:13, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have already provided scholarly sources that explicitly criticise this viewpoint. That is not sufficient to remove combined figures from the article (and that is not my intention, by the way), but is quite sufficient to remove them from the lead and put it into the section specially devoted to that.

If you think the figures should be in the lead (again, I do not say they should be removed from the artcile), per WP:BURDEN you are supposed to prove that they reflect a scholarly consensus. You yourself admitted the source is maybe not the best one, and the sources available to me (according to our formal criteria, they are very good secondary sources) openly say Courtois' introduction from the BB (where the figures were taken from) is "provocative", and the way the figures are presented is very controversial. Some authors believe the attempt Courtois made are the result of Vichy syndrome, and others directly say the goal is to understate the evil nature of Nazism.

Do you really think the source described as provocative can be used in introduction? Interestingly, whereas I presented the sources that criticize the BB (and similar views), nobody presented the sources that criticize theh sources presented by me.

By the way, you may be interested to read this [22]. Snyder is a specialist in XXth century European history, and this article is based on his own research. -Paul Siebert (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde, in addition to that, try to think about the following. If you look, for example, at the Holodomor article, you will see that the estimates of the death toll range from 1.8 to 12 million (about 1000% uncertainty !). The question is still a subject of debates between specialists. Do you think Great Leap Famine figures are known better? I don't believe so, taking into account the state of Chinese statistics during those times. Specialists are still working meticulously in archives, but why? Courtois (who is not a specialist in demography or famine) had already made this job in mid 1990s: we know the death toll with astonishingly high precision (from 85 to 100 million, and at least a half of them are Soviet and Chinese famine victims). Don't you find it ridiculous that an obsolete and provocative source (the BB) is presented in the article as a summary of modern views? -- Paul Siebert (talk) 14:43, 9 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, you really need to take it slow. I haven't said the figures should be in the lead, and I haven't said they are well known. I'm not required to show anything per WP:BURDEN because I haven't yet advocated for a position here. I'm trying to get you to work in a manner that would allow us to build consensus, and in a manner that will not result in the article being locked again. You've consistently missed the point on this. Whether you like it or not, the article isn't going to change substantially without consensus being built here. You need to provide a specific, actionable, proposal, otherwise you're going to get ignored, as you have been already. That's all. Vanamonde (talk) 06:07, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Vanamonde, to build consensus is exactly what I want, and I already explained how I want to achieve that: I am sincerely explaining what I think, and what sources my thinking is based on, and what I think about your thinking, and you do the same. After several rounds we, per Aumann, inevitably come to consensus. From your last post, I conclude I misunderstood your position, and, frankly, that is partially because you yourself were not absolutely clear. I mention BURDEN, because I thought you were advocating some concrete position, that is good that I was wrong. Do I understand correct you agree that the figures are presented in the lead in a very misleading and provocative way, and they should be moved from the lead to more appropriate place in the article, and placed into a more appropriate context (description of the debates over the BB)?

--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:03, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since you ask, I believe we should be looking to present a variety of estimates in the lead, from the best and most nuanced sources we can find. These include many of the chapters within the BBOC, but I believe the introduction does not fall into this category; I've enumerated the problems with this myself, in a previous talk page discussion (maybe two years ago). My point, though, is that if you wish to engage anyone besides Collect and myself, you're going to have to present a specific proposal. My suggestion for such a proposal would be to propose replacing Malia with estimates from several authors, but authors whose works are in depth studies rather than sweeping attempts at summary. Vanamonde (talk) 14:08, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Before starting to discuss any specific proposal, I need to be sure people are agree to participate in this discussion. From Collect's posts I assume he is not. Besides you, AmateurEditor will participate, but they will join us later (from his talk page, I conclude they are busy now).

As I has already explained, the problem is deeper than you think. If you read the sources I am referring to, their main concern is not that figures are incorrect, but that figures (whatever small or big they are) are misleading: it is fundamentally incorrect to combine all deaths in one category, because the conclusion a reader might draw from that may be totally wrong. MKuCR, in contrast to the Holocaust, were not a single event, and majority historians simply do not believe such a subject exists as a single topic. I already gave an example of gscholar search (look at my post on 15:57, 8 May 2018), and you will see that at least two groups of authors exist: one group is studying, for example, Chinese famine (about 40% of all "MKuCR" victims) as a separate historical event, and these authors do not describe it as a mass killing. These scholars are renown historians and good famine experts, and they totally ignore the writings of another group of authors who are pushing a totally different idea: that all mass mortality events in Communist countries were mass killings, and the primary reason was some "generic Communism". Again, these two groups of authors live in two "parallel universes", they almost ignore each other, and I prefer to trust to the authors from the first group.

Do you know why? Because, if I were a Wikipedian without any previous knowledge of this subject who decided to write this article from scratch, and I wanted to find neutral sources, I wouldn't type "Communist AND mass AND killing" in google, but ""mass mortality" and Communist" in google.SCHOLAR. The first search gives a reference to Rummel, but when you read him[[23]], you will see all sources he use are more than 30 years old. He himself was old, he died in 2014, and it is quite likely his data are obsolete. The second search gives much more modern sources, and, taking into account that google scholars screens out most non-academic sources, you can hope these results are of better quality and more balanced. To understand if Rummel is not outdated (that may be, for example, everybody knows and respects Solzhenitsyn, but no modern scholars trust his figures), you look for reviews on Rummel's works in jstor[[24]]. And the first thing you find are the works that criticize Rummel's methodological flaws.

Which sources would you trust more in that situation?--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:01, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding "we should be looking to present a variety of estimates in the lead," I can say, there is no dispute about the estimate of number of apples. What actually happens, some authors decided to combine apples and oranges in one category that they call "apples". Other authors prefer to speak about apples and oranges separately, and these authors seem to be much better (according to formal credentials).

There was a long dispute between Rosefielde and Wheatcroft on mass mortality under Stalinist rule, and both authors are knowledgeable in this area. In this dispute, they were putting forward serious arguments, and their opinia should be treated seriously. However, later, Rosefielde decided make generalizations, proposing the idea of Red Holocaust in what is claimed to be ("a comprehensive study of the transcommunist holocaust"). However, Rosefielde is not a specialist in history of other Communist countries, and there are many other authors who study Chinese or Cambodian history, whose views do not fit Rosefielde's paradigm. They do not speak about MKuCR, they would probably disagree with this concept, but they prefer to focus on their own topic (like Wheatcroft) and not discuss the MCuCR concept in general.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:21, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article discusses a very complex group of subjects, but it present it in an absolutely superficial and provocative way. To demonstrate that, let me take a deeper look at one aspect of MKuCR, the Great Soviet famine of 1932-33. Four levels of discussion are possible.

• Level one. A large group of scholars study this famine, and the debates are concentrated on the amount of victims (estimates range from roughly two million to twelve) and on intentionality (was it intentional, was it directed against Ukrainians, was it a genocide? There is still no consensus about that, but the level of argumentation is high, the discussion is very deep.
• Level two. The scholars who study Stalinism (even not Soviet Communism in general) are working on estimates of the number of victims, and the mechanism of repressions. They prefer to study Stalinism as a separate phenomenon, and they consider Communism just as one factor that potentially explains the deaths. Below is a quote from Timoty Snyder (who compares Hitler and Stalin, not Communism and Nazism, the link has already been provided):

"Beyond the numbers killed remains the question of intent. Most of the Soviet killing took place in times of peace, and was related more or less distantly to an ideologically informed vision of modernization. Germany bears the chief responsibility for the war, and killed civilians almost exclusively in connection with the practice of racial imperialism. "

"All in all, the Germans deliberately killed about 11 million noncombatants, a figure that rises to more than 12 million if foreseeable deaths from deportation, hunger, and sentences in concentration camps are included. For the Soviets during the Stalin period, the analogous figures are approximately six million and nine million. These figures are of course subject to revision, but it is very unlikely that the consensus will change again as radically as it has since the opening of Eastern European archives in the 1990s. Since the Germans killed chiefly in lands that later fell behind the Iron Curtain, access to Eastern European sources has been almost as important to our new understanding of Nazi Germany as it has been to research on the Soviet Union itself. (The Nazi regime killed approximately 165,000 German Jews.)"

• Level three. The authors who study the USSR in general, summarize the death toll without going into much details. The example is Nicolas Werth, although his works are still of a good quality.
• Level four. The authors, like Courtois or Rummel, who pushi quite simple and superficial views, take published data and non-critically stockpile all numbers together in the same category. Sometimes, the authors whose data they use directly object to that (there was a conflict between Werth and Courtois about that), sometimes they simply ignore it.

I believe everybody understand this article has been written from the point of view of the authors from the fourth group, the most superficial group. --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:24, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If this article needs anything, it's more dispassionate input from uninvolved editors. In that spirit, I put this article up for peer review last month. The result of the review, which garnered one comment, can be found here. The reviewer, Gen. Quon, stated the following, which I present here for our discussion.

In the "Proposed causes" section, I think Rummel's argument is really interesting, but the article jumps from "ideology" to "religion" rather quickly. Is there any way this can bridged a bit better? While I don't necessarily disagree with Rummel, I know that a lot of people would object to calling Marxist-Leninist communism a "religion". Perhaps you can mention what Rummel's understanding of/criteria for religion is? Or perhaps this is beyond the scope of the article?

-schetm (talk) 02:11, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This content was included a few days ago and arguably does not belong to the page. We have other pages to describe non-communist killings. This is POV fork. My very best wishes (talk) 14:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The content fits nicely into the section given it is COMPARING mass killings. This is what the section is about. If this should be removed, then the entire section should be removed. Hell, one could say the entire article is a POV fork!--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Look, your are placing a statement about American client states practicing mass-murderous politics on this page. This is an obvious example of Whataboutism (aka And you are lynching Negroes). Please wait for comments by other contributors. If there is a consensus it should be included, let's include. If not, you may try an RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 14:16, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This smacks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. No one cared so long as the section "comparing" mass killings made no real comparisons at all. When scholarship is introduced providing a more balanced view and comparison of mass killings, explicitly comparing communist mass killings with non communist or anti-communist mass killings, all the sudden we get accusations of it being a POV fork and "whataboutism". And the irony is the once sentence you complain about is from the same source cited after the first sentence of the first paragraph of this section. Apparently this source (Goldhagen) is fine and dandy so long as it pushes a certain narrative, eh?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:25, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV means "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Placing materials that are not on the subject of the page (and the page is not about the crimes by American imperialists or "right-wing authoritarian regimes") is not enforcing the NPOV, but rather WP:SOAP. My very best wishes (talk) 14:34, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You don't seem to get it. The section is about comparisons to other mass killings, no? If anything, my additions made sure that other significant points of view were included in this section, and well on topic given the blatant comparisons made between communist and non/anti-communist mass killings in these sources. Prior to that, significant views were omitted to maintain a certain narrative, that communism is by far the greatest killing machine ever. Clearly not all scholars agree, which is why it is important to make sure these views are included so that "all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic" (and you seem to forget the topic of the SECTION is on COMPARISONS to OTHER mass killings, making my additions on topic). If you don't want any real comparisons to other mass killings with all significant viewpoints being considered, then by all means we should discuss removing the section entirely.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First paragraph in the section is clearly on this subject - no objections. Second paragraph is based primarily on this source, which does tell about mass killings by communists and others, but the chapter is mostly about the importance of declaration of human rights, not about the comparison. Perhaps a proper summary along the lines of this source could be included, but it is mostly about the prevention of mass killings. My very best wishes (talk) 15:02, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)The POVFORK argument is off base. We're not including comparisons because other mass killings happened; we're including comparisons because reliable sources have made such comparisons. It would only be a POVFORK if it began to verge into a highly detailed treatment of those killings, or if it began to rely on sources which don't deal with mass killings under communist regimes, neither of which has occurred. (Added after edit conflict): the "comparisons" sections itself is entirely appropriate, because comparisons have been made in several substantive reliable sources. It would only be a problem if we were drawing on sources unrelated to MKUCR. Vanamonde (talk) 14:55, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is - the first paragraph might reasonably be kept, but going further appears to be an NPOV problem at least.Collect (talk) 15:23, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Come, even before the reduction you made we're looking at a total of two paragraphs. We've far more content just on the lack of prosecution, for instance, and on motivation, which from my readings of the sources are not topics covered in much greater depth that the comparisons. Vanamonde (talk) 16:31, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the bit about "American client states" as not being a comparison but a clear assertion about the US having "client states". Unless we wish to imply that the US actively backs and supports mass killings by its "client states", which is rather far afield here. Collect (talk) 17:13, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But why remove John Henry Coatsworth? That was an academic source which made direct comparisons with political repression and killings in the Eastern Bloc and Latin America. It seems appropriate for the section IMO.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:17, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the removal was not justified, but the problem is even deeper.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:04, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the comments above, it appears that the Aarons materials should be restored, along with Coatsworth. I will see to this later in the day. The removal of Aarons by User:Miacek seems to me to be completely unjustified given it is an academic source, which he smeared as a "fringe author" and an "unreliable source with sensationalist claims", which is complete bullshit and seems to me to be a case of WP:TRIGGERED. This should be restored forthwith at the very least. You're right that problem is even deeper, but at least what I recently added, which was deleted for purely political reasons, did provide some balance to the "comparisons" section which, as it stands now, reads like some POV anti-Communist screed using cherry-picked sources.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 12:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please move the whole section to the talk place? It needs a separate discussion and careful rewriting. After that, we will place it into the main article. By the way, I think the title of the section is non-neutral. Majority of sources compare some separate killing events, not "generic Communist killing", and the title should reflect that fact.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A NPOV problem is much more serious that you guys think. I already explained that section is NPOV and UNDUE for two reasons.

• First, it ignores the opinion of scholars who criticise the very idea to combine "MKuCR" into a single category. As an example, read the article authored by David-Fox (and the authors cited therein), which I already mentioned above. That means, the section must explain only a fraction of authors believe the very subject of the article exists.
• Second, there is a vast amount of literature that discusses these events separately, or does the comparison of one "Communist killing" with some "non-Communist killing", and this discussion is not in a context of Communism. The examples are: CORMAC Ó GRÁDA The ripple that drowns? Twentieth‐century famines in China and India as economic history. 27 May 2008 [[25]]. O'Grada is a renown famine expert. He sees both famine (Great Leap froward famine and Bengal famine) as artificial, but there no even a single word "killing" in the entire article. Another example is Helen Fein's article about Cambodia (Revolutionary and Antirevolutionary Genocides: A Comparison of State Murders in Democratic Kampuchea, 1975 to 1979, and in Indonesia, 1965 to 1966, Comparative Studies in Society and History Vol. 35, No. 4 (Oct., 1993), pp. 796-823). In this article, she does not compare a "Communist mass killing" with another mass killing, but one genocide with another genocide. One more authors, Timothy Snyder, and author of "Bloodlands...", where he studied the events in Europe in XX century, performed a comparative analysis of Hitler's and Stalin's mass killings. Whereas he describe both events as mass killing, he does not make an emphasis on "Communism", instead he mention that Hitler's killing were connected to his imperialism, whereas Stalin's killing occurred under a pretext of modernisation. By the way, he concluded that new data tell that Stalin killed less than early literature says, and the number of victims were smaller than the number of people killed by Hitler. If the due weight will not be given to these points of view (which are mainstream, by the way), the whole article should be considered a POV fork. --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:19, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PS. By the way, I doubt we need a consensus for placing a POV fork or NPOV tag in the article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:23, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"he concluded that new data tell that Stalin killed less than early literature says, and the number of victims were smaller than the number of people killed by Hitler." I must say this is something new to me. I'm curious and am going to read this book very soon. To my knowledge, just Holodomor alone killed more people than Holocaust.Miacek (talk) 19:16, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Snyder is a serious scholar and a specialist in XX century European history, he does not devote a special book to such a subject, because the question who killed more is more appropriate to Guinness book, not to a serious study. The source I am refering to is just a short article there he summarizes his and others' findings. Here is the link for your convenience [[26]]--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:29, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot, will read it tomorrow.Miacek (talk) 19:36, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome. In addition, it is fundamentally incorrect to compare population losses resulted from Soviet famine and mass murder during the Holocaust. "Population losses" include not only those who starved to death, but those who died from diseases that would be unlikely in another situation, the decrease of birth rate etc. For example, the very same Rosefielde who insisted that Holodomor killed around 8-10 million authored an article where he estimated that about 6.1 million premature deaths occurred in democratic Russia in 90s (Steven Rosefielde. Premature Deaths: Russia's Radical Economic Transition in Soviet Perspective Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 53, No. 8 (Dec., 2001), pp. 1159-1176 [[ http://www.jstor.org/stable/826265]]). Does it mean democracy killed 6 million in Russia? Definitely no. For those who are familiar with the situation in Russia in 90s (now we are living in much more transparent world than in 30s, so many people know Russia was just an ordinary developing country in 90, and nothing similar to the Holocaust or Hologomor occurred there in 90s) these Rosefielde's estimate mean that his vision of who should be considered as Holodomor victims is pretty loose and vague.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:45, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's fundamentally unethical to put on a par the population losses under Stalin and under Yeltsin. In the first case, these were completely avoidable and were even deliberately inflicted. In Russia of 1990s, on the other hand, the government did everything that was possible to alleviate the situation, but people still suffered. Some of them even because of their own fault (alcoholism became rampant, drug abuse, STDs due to reckless sexual behaviour.) Even during the worst years of the 1990s (my parents, too, were unemployed in 1992 and we lived from the miserable pension of my granny) was there no widespread malnutrition neither in Russia nor Estonia, unlike under Stalin.Miacek (talk) 20:07, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a proponent of Stalin, the question is different. I found this Rosefielde's article accidentally when I was looking for literature about Holodomor. I was surprised to learn Rosefielde used similar terminology to describe mass mortality under Yeltsin and Stalin. That means that part of those who died prematurely in 1932-33 (those whom Rosefielde includes in Holodomor death toll) belong to the same category as those who died in 90s (because the Rosefielde used the same methodology). In other words, since we know there were no real mass killing in Yeltsin's Russia (except Chechnya), not all population losses in 1932-33 were the victims or literally starvation. Part of them died as a result of less dramatic causes (as in 90s), but all of them are considered by Rosefielde as the victims of Holodomor. That means we have more reason to trust the authors like Wheatcroft or Snyder, who gove lover figures.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:41, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The generic communism theory is inseparable from the double genocide theory. As Malia wrote, "The full power of the shock, however, was delivered by the unavoidable comparison of this sum with that for Nazism, which at an estimated 25 million turns out to be distinctly less murderous than Communism.... Courtois...spelled out the comparison, thereby making the volume a firebrand.... [He] explicitly equated the "class genocide" of Communism with the "race genocide" of Nazism.... What is more, he raised the question of the "complicity" with Communist crime of the legions of Western apologists for Stalin [etc.]" (Black Book, p. xi) He concludes the French Socialist Party is more complicit with genocide than French fascists and Nazi collaborators. Note that he does not say that the opposition to the generic communism theory comes from Communists, but from liberals whom he also accuses of complicity with genocide.

Incidentally, Valentino distinguished between mass killings he attributed to Communism with "counter-insurgency" mass killings, such as in Afghanistan, which he compared to American supported mass killings in Latin America.

I agree with including the disputed edit. This topic is inseparable from the double gencide theory, which is clear in the writings of Malia and Courtois. As Courtois argued, "the deliberate starvation of a child of a Ukrainian kulak as a result of the famine caused by Stalin's regime "is equal to" the starvation of a Jewish child in the Warsaw ghetto as a result of the famine caused by the Nazi regime." (Black Book, p. 9)

TFD (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas including this edit is absolutely correct, we must avoid giving undue weight to it, and avoid creating an absolutely false impression that mainstream sources compare "generic Communism" with anything else. Most mainstream historians do not compare Communist mass kilings with other killing. They compare one event with another (e.g. Cambodian genocide vs Rwanda genocide), or one regime with another (Hitler vs Stalin), and it is frequently done not in a context of Communism.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:33, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Version 1:

Comparison to other mass killings

Daniel Goldhagen says that 20th century Communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type."^[1] Other scholars in the fields of Communist studies and genocide studies, such as Steven Rosefielde, Benjamin Valentino, and R.J. Rummel, have come to similar conclusions.^[2][3][4] Rosefielde states that it is possible the "Red Holocaust" killed more non-combatants than "Ha Shoah" and "Japan's Asian holocaust" combined, and "was at least as heinous, given the singularity of Hitler's genocide." Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total."^[4]

Version 2:

Comparison to other mass killings

Daniel Goldhagen says that 20th century Communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type."^[5] Other scholars in the fields of Communist studies and genocide studies, such as Steven Rosefielde, Benjamin Valentino, and R.J. Rummel, have come to similar conclusions.^[2][3][4] Rosefielde states that it is possible the "Red Holocaust" killed more non-combatants than "Ha Shoah" and "Japan's Asian holocaust" combined, and "was at least as heinous, given the singularity of Hitler's genocide." Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total."^[4]

Mark Aarons says that right-wing authoritarian regimes and dictatorships backed by Western powers committed atrocities and mass killings that rival the Communist world, citing examples such as the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, the Indonesian mass killings of 1965–1966, the "disappearances" in Guatemala during the civil war, and the assassinations and state terrorism associated with Operation Condor throughout South America.^[6] Daniel Goldhagen says that during the last two decades of the Cold War, the number of American client states practicing mass murder outnumbered those of the Soviet Union.^[7] Historian John Henry Coatsworth says that the number of repression victims in Latin America alone far surpassed that of the Eastern Bloc during the period 1960 to 1990.^[8]

IMO, version 2 is more balanced than the original, as the first appears to be an unbalanced screed against Communism and gives the casual reader the impression that this is the consensus view among scholars, which is clearly not the case. There seems to be an issue with the use of "American client states", but this is the language Goldhagen himself uses. Perhaps it can be put into "quotemarks" like here so as not to be using Wikipedia's voice. Keep in mind that Goldhagen is cited in the first paragraph so I see no undue weight issues citing him again in the second paragraph.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, before starting to tell the story, we need to properly explain what we are telling about. The concept of "generic Communism" should be properly explained and put in a broader concept, because the whole article is written in the way that implicitly assumes this viewpoint is mainstream (which is not the case).

David-Fox describes Malia's concept of "Generic Communism" as "any party movements founded by intellectuals"^[9]. This generic Communism is considered as a greatest evil, and all mass mortality events in Communist states are ascribed to it. This is not the case, David-Fox argues, and he disagrees with the assertion that "Pol Pot's study of Marxism in Paris thus comes across as historically more important than the gulf between radical Soviet industrialism and the Khmer Rouge's murderous anti-urbanism." (ibid) Taking into account that the "generic Communism" category is not mainstream, we have to provide an exhaustive list of its notable proponents. I think, Malia and Courtois should be in this list. Valentino should be there with reservations: he defines Communist mass killing as a separate type of mass killing that occurs when authorities are trying to perform some dramatic social transformations. In that sense, not every killing performed by a Communist regime is "Communist mass killing". Thus, according to Valentino, killing in Afghanistan was just a part of an ordinary anti-partisan warfare, not different from what Americans were doing in Vietnam. Rummel also didn't share generic Communism as a culprit. According to him, totalitarianism, not only Communism was a primary evil.

Too much focus on numbers also should be avoided, because the numbers blur the picture: Communist regimes had been controlling a much bigger part of the world during much longer time than other totalitarian or authoritarian regimes had, so if we look at the relative figures, their crimes look much less impressive (with exception of Cambodia). I propose to discuss figures in a separate new section (see below).

The main part of the section should be devoted to what majority of publications are writing about: a comparison of separate events and regimes with other separate events and regimes (both Communist and non-Communist).

If this proposal is accepted, I can participate in writing a draft. This section should be big and detailed, because a lot of sources are available on that subject.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the need for a rewrite, but that will take quite some time. As the section stands now it is blatantly POV and based largely on one source (Rosefielde). Immediate options could include leaving it as is and adding a neutrality template, reinserting the disputed material (and it seems more editors are weighing in on the issue, agreeing that the material should be reinserted), or just removing the section altogether for the time being.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 19:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the text can be re-inserted, and the tag added, however, the article has been kept frozen in a terrible state for 5+ years, so it can wait a little bit more. The more work is done here, on the talk page, the less chances that the article will get frozen again. I myself abstain from editing the article to provide as less pretexts for an edit war as possible. Meanwhile, can you please take a look at the lead version proposed by me? We almost achieved consensus about it, and if you are ok with it, I'll replace the current text (which is non neutral and contains several distorted facts) with a new version.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I'm okay with it, although I'd replace "Mass killings and mass mortality events occurred under many twentieth century Communist regimes" with "Mass killings and mass mortality events occurred under some twentieth century Communist regimes", given that even Valentino agrees that MOST Communist regimes did not engage in mass killing.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 20:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also considering undoing this edit by Miacek which was clearly ideologically driven given his comments and ad hominem, with justifications for removal which do not hold water given it is an academic source. It would at least restore one dissenting scholarly voice to this section. This edit would be the altered version which removed controversial commentary by Goldhagen about "American client states", so I'm hoping it will not result in edit warring. Thoughts?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 20:27, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What about "under twentieth century Communist regimes"? That implies neither "many" nor "some" and is totally neutral.

Regarding restoration of the text, I propose to put everything in the draft on the talk page, discuss it here, and put it into the article after consensus has been achieved. That looks slower, but it may save our time considerably.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can live with that. Regarding the draft, it would look like this (I guess this can be considered version 3):

Comparison to other mass killings

Daniel Goldhagen says that 20th century Communist regimes "have killed more people than any other regime type."^[10] Other scholars in the fields of Communist studies and genocide studies, such as Steven Rosefielde, Benjamin Valentino, and R.J. Rummel, have come to similar conclusions.^[2][3][4] Rosefielde states that it is possible the "Red Holocaust" killed more non-combatants than "Ha Shoah" and "Japan's Asian holocaust" combined, and "was at least as heinous, given the singularity of Hitler's genocide." Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total."^[4]

Mark Aarons says that right-wing authoritarian regimes and dictatorships backed by Western powers committed atrocities and mass killings that rival the Communist world, citing examples such as the Indonesian occupation of East Timor, the Indonesian mass killings of 1965–1966, the "disappearances" in Guatemala during the civil war, and the assassinations and state terrorism associated with Operation Condor throughout South America.^[6]

--C.J. Griffin (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you mind me to edit this draft directly?--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:59, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah go right ahead.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 22:22, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, we do not have consensus about it. At least three contributors (Collect, me and Miacek) happened to disagree based on their edits and discussion above. My very best wishes (talk) 22:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I hope you did not mean we need a consensus for changing a draft on the talk page. --Paul Siebert (talk) 01:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Collect is largely responsible for the third version above. Even though I strongly prefer version 2, my original version, I'm pushing for this one in an effort to find consensus on the issue. As it stands now, it is a blatantly one sided diatribe with no dissenting scholars present.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 23:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a bunch of opinions. Are they notable? I would suggest to include only individuals we have wikipages about. In addition, the Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism and concept of totalitarianism are notable and should be mentioned. Everything else could be excluded. My very best wishes (talk) 00:38, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We have a WP:RS policy. Let's not establish separate rules for each article separately. Secondary peer-reviewed sources that have been cited by others (desirably) in google scholar are quite good. A wikipage warrants notability, but tells nothing about reliability. --Paul Siebert (talk) 01:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The title of the section is "Comparison to other mass killings", not "Comparison of Nazism and Stalinism". If the latter were the case, the entire section should be deleted as it goes beyond that even without my edits. But speaking of that narrow comparison, I can already think of much needed additions from Wheatcroft and Snyder on this issue in order to counterbalance the extreme views of Rosefielde and Rummel (the latter's piece was published on the right-wing propaganda cite WorldNetDaily no less - if anything, that should be removed! Talk about shoddy scholarship!), which would paint a very different picture than the one at present. And it seems desperate to insist that scholars have their own wiki article in order to be included here. How anyone could claim the scholarly Aarons source is not notable but the Rummel screed in WND is cannot claim to be objective on this issue, this is pure WP:IDONTLIKEIT at work here. Your justifications for purging this material are getting more ridiculous and the consensus seems to be gaining momentum in the opposite direction.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 01:05, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

C.J. Griffin, many (if not majority of) sources compare not generic Communism with anything else, but one regime with another regime, or one event with another event. In other words, majority of specialised studies do not aimed to answer the question what was worse: Communism of, e.g. Nazism, and simply avoid this question as frivolous. Accordingly, I see the goal of this section not in answering a question if Communism was better or worse than anything else, but to put the events we are talking about i a broader historical context.

Yes, the sources you cited should be used in this section. In addition the list should include (besides David-Fox):

• JOEL MOKYR and CORMAC Ó GRADA What do people die of during famines: the Great Irish Famine in comparative perspective. European Review of Economic History, Vol. 6, No. 3 (DECEMBER 2002), pp. 339-363. Oxford University Press. Stable URL: [[27]] The authors compare Irish famine with modern famines.
• Cormac ó Gráda. The Ripple That Drowns? Twentieth-Century Famines in China and India as Economic History. The Economic History Review, New Series, Vol. 61, No. S1, Feeding the Masses: Plenty, Want and the Distribution of Food and Drink in Historical Perspective (Aug.,2008), pp. 5-37. Wiley on behalf of the Economic History Society Stable URL: [[28]]. As the title says, a comparison of man made Bengal Famine and Great Leap forward famine is provided.
• Helen Fein. Revolutionary and Antirevolutionary Genocides: A Comparison of State Murders in Democratic Kampuchea, 1975 to 1979, and in Indonesia, 1965 to 1966. Comparative Studies in Society and History, Vol. 35, No. 4 (Oct., 1993), pp. 796-823. Cambridge University Press Stable URL: [[29]] The title is self-explanatory
• Robert Cribb. Genocide in the Non-Western World: Implications for Holocaust Studies. in Genocide: Cases, Comparisons and Contemporary Debates. Ed.: Steven L. B. Jensen. ISSN 1602-8031 ISBN 87-989305-0-8 p. 123-138. Some quotes:

"When Chinese and Cambodian communists exterminated landlords and conservative intellectuals, and when the Indonesian army exterminated communists, they were not merely killing political enemies, they were seeking to destroy forever a particular kind of Chinese, or Cambodian, or Indonesian identity. The quasi-ethnic nature of this extermination is particularly clear if we remember how important class background was in choosing Chinese and Cambodian victims, and how the continuing persecution of communists in Indonesia targeted not only former communists but their families as well."

"We can only understand the violence done to Indonesian communists if we examine the strained political atmosphere which they contributed to shaping in the early 1960s. We can only understand the violence of the Chinese communists if we examine the violence of the Kuomintang government in the 1930s. We can only understand the violence of the Khmer Rouge if we understand the desperation of life in Cambodian villages in the 1950s and 1960s."

• René Lemarchand. Comparing the Killing Fields: Rwanda, Cambodia and Bosnia. (ibid, p. 140-173). This quote seems very interesting:

"Perhaps the most striking common denominator at the root of these genocides is that they were all rationalized in terms of ideologies borrowed from the West. Although their real impact on the cognitive maps of the killers is open to debate, there is little question that they contributed in no small way to providing offi cial justifi cation for their crimes. Democracy defi ned as the rule of the majority, nationalism and Marxism-Leninism served as the overarching ideological framework for mass murder in Rwanda, Bosnia and Cambodia. The fi rst became the legitimizing myth of the Rwanda revolution, and the official ideological subtext for resisting the Tutsi “counter-revolution”; the second is inseparable from the ethnic surgery performed in the name of Greater Serbia; the third gave its characteristic anti-imperialist-cum-populist stamp to the Cambodian carnage." It seems the author believe generic Communism is a part of a broader category: Western ideology as whole.

(I have to take a break. Will continue later)

• Review: Eric D. Weitz. Second-Generation Comparative Research on Genocide. Reviewed Work(s): Genocide in the Age of the Nation State by Mark Levene; The Dark Sideof Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing by Michael Mann; The Killing Trap: Genocide inthe Twentieth Century by Manus I. Midlarsky; Purifier et détruire: Usages politiques desmassacres et génocides by Jacques Sémelin; Final Solutions: Mass Killing and Genocide inthe Twentieth Century by Benjamin A. Valentino; A Century of Genocide: Utopias of Raceand Nation by Review by: Scott Straus. World Politics, Vol. 59, No. 3 (Apr., 2007), pp. 476-501 [[30]]

--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:16, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Those are some great quotes and such material should find its way into the article. It is certainly more in depth and puts these historical events into proper context, much more than "The killing machine that is Marxism" and other such nonsense which is cited throughout this article.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 04:36, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We do have a page about Mark Aarons, and he is known as a left-wing activist and author of books like The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People. I am not sure this is such a good source. My very best wishes (talk) 03:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He co-authored this book with John Loftus, a former prosecutor in the Justice Department’s Nazi War Crimes Unit. This book was cited 77 times, according to google scholar. By the way, what do you have against Jews? --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Being a left-wing activist somehow disqualifies him from being a legitimate scholar? But being published in a reactionary propaganda rag known for conspiracy theories does not, apparently. Or how about Robert Conquest being a member of the Information Research Department? If this is the best you can do to disqualify Aarons as a reliable source for this article I would say you have failed miserably.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 04:36, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't work two ways, folks. On one hand you're keen on dismissing everywhere scholars who point at higher estimates of Stalin's victims, claiming there are newer and better sources that point at lower victims yet you try to make up a whole paragraph based on just one non-scholar source with clear political affiliations. That's not WP:DUE. And C.J. Griffin, please drop those personal assaults of me slandering anubody, pushing an agenda, etc. These don't help to further your cause.Miacek (talk) 14:20, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Apples and oranges. The works of Robert Conquest, Alexander Solzhenitsyn and others which gave huge estimates (often citing the aforementioned as sources for their own estimates) prior to the opening of Soviet archives have largely been discredited on that issue. The same cannot be said of the sources I have provided, even if you disagree with the political affiliations of one of them.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 02:31, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

C.J. Griffin, you yourself compare apples and oranges: Conquest was a scientist, Solzhenitsyn was just a writer. By the way, Conquest later conceded his estimate was wrong. BTW, your point has one more important aspect: we should not treat old and new estimates as equally trustworthy figures. In connection to that, you may be interested to look at the table in the GULAG article: I made it several years ago, and I was surprised to see how large the dispersion of earlier estimate was (from 2 to 20+ millions), and how it has gradually converged to modern consensus figure. Anyway, let's finish with the lead, and after that I'll focus on this section. I have an idea on how to present the sources, I'll try to modify this draft. By the way, I support you idea to move the section to the talk page (remove it, temporarily, from the article)--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:48, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Then go ahead and remove it. There are several versions above to choose from and modify; if such a section is to be restored it needs to be rewritten entirely IMO. Oh, I should clarify that the only reason I mention Conquest and Solzhenitsyn in the same breath is that it seems these two are often cited by authors of popular histories as authorities on the subject of Soviet repression and mortality rates, while often neglecting the much more reliable scholarly work of Wheatcroft, Getty and even Tauger. This is why so many books and Stalin biographies that line the shelves of bookstores still claim Stalin murdered more than 20 million people, which any Sovietologist worth his salt will tell you is bullshit.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This argument seems reasonable. I am currently reading the literature and thinking about this section, and what is becoming clear for me: the "Comparison" section may be written from three totally different points of view (which may be presented in parallel):

(i) Communist regimes killed XXXX million people, other regimes killed YYYY million people. The only goal such a comparison (implicit or explicit, no matter) is to show who was the greatest XX century evil. This is more appropriate to Guinness book, not to serious article. It is also acceptable for pushing a very concrete political idea (and Wikipedia is not a good place for that). Finally, it is simply misleading, because the regimes that controls greater countries during a longer time may lead to greater total deaths, but, I believe, you will agree that the event that lead to a loss of, for example, 50% of some group of population was much more horrible than the event that lead to "just" 5% loss (no matter how large the losses were in absolute numbers). You yourself give relative figures to demonstrate a horror of Soviet repressions in Estonia, and, I suspect, you do that because the absolute figures would be much less impressive. My conclusion: since several sources do perform such comparison, some space should be devoted to them in this section, but that should not be the major part of it, and the section should not create an impression this methodological approach is mainstream.

(ii) Communist regimes had some common features and some specifics features, and the question about the relative role of Communism and other factors in the onset of mass killing is a subject of scientific discussion. In connection to that, one more source (Eric D. Weitz, discusses "second generation genocide scholars") makes several good points, which have to be reflected.

(iii) Radicalised non-Western societies borrow some Western ideologies to justify social transformations they perform. Some regimes may borrow Communist phraseology, but there are actually more commonality than differences between Communist and non-Communist mass killing that occur in geographically close countries (as an example, see a comparison between Cambodian, Chineese and Indonesian genocides).

--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:29, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I can agree that simply a "comparison" section could be completely removed. The actual issue here is how the communist ideology or system was related to mass murder, and that must be included. If in discussing this question the source makes a comparison with other regimes, that's fine, but it belong to other sections of the page. My very best wishes (talk) 15:47, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The section should just be removed for the time being until there is a significant rewrite.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 02:31, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would reply to Paul that Soviet repressions were quite "impressive" in any terms; Estonia's population losses were perhaps third in Europe after Poland and Belarus (if we include losses due to the large emigration wave of 1944).Miacek (talk) 16:16, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are not seriously comparing emigration and repressions. Those who emigrated did not die, and, by and large, even did'n suffer. In addition, most emigrants were people who were fighting in waffenSS, their families and Nazi collaborators; it is quite understandable they were trying to escape to the west. Although I agree that most of them were not sincere Nazi supporters, and that they supported Nazi against what they thought was the greater evil, objectively they were fighting on the Axis side, and this is not a thing one can make an emphasis at. It would be better just to forget that: You are not talking about poor Estonians who were bravely fighting against the Allies, and we will not blame Estonians for that (because, I agree, most of them were doing that not because they were sincere Nazi supporters).--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:36, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

PS I've just checked the article about Estonian deportations, which, I suppose, is being carefully edited by the Estonians themselves (because other users are hardly interested in that narrow subject), so the figures presented there can be considered the highest possible value. The article says 33,000 people were deported, which is about 2-3% of total population, and 2,199 killed. Not impressive compared with, for example Belorussia. --Paul Siebert (talk) 16:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with your views in the last comment. The ones who fled were by no means mostly Nazi collaborators, it included the almost complete intellectual elite of the pre-war era Estonia who clearly sympathized more with the US-British bloc (already in 1930s), but fled because the 1940-1941 Soviet occupation had been simply so brutal. Also simply wealthy peasants fled. My maternal relatives who also tried to flee but couldn't might have been a bit different (though they were of Estonian-Russian mixed descent) given my grandfather had served in some German border battallion but deserted, nevertheless, most of the emigrants had no Nazi connections whatsoever, just the fear of the Soviets.Miacek (talk) 16:46, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A viewpoint of you, Estonian WP editors, are advocating is sometimes hard to understand. I recall one editor insisted the deeds of brave Estonians, who stopped Allied advance on the Eastern front, to be reflected in the WWII article, and you tell there were no (unwilling) Nazi supporters in Estonia. The number of Estonians who were fighting on the Nazi side was pretty high, and, in relative figures, it was enormous, so I am pretty sure many of those who escaped to the West, although not everybody, of course, were either collaborators or supporters. One way or the another, this is a very shaky subject, and it would be correct not to open this can of worms: the Soviets treated Baltic peoples badly, but what happened in the Baltic states in 1941-45 is bu no means a glorious page of your history. The best thing would be to forget it (because the border between a national independence hero and a Nazi war criminal is thin and elusive in this particular case). I suggest to stop this discussion, at least here, because, per WP:FORUM, we cannot use this talk page for that. You are welcome to continue on my talk page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:13, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. By the way, if you are thinking in these terms, the greatest population losses the Baltic states suffered in the XXI century: emigration to EU is enormous now. Don't you agree? :-)--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:13, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the whole section is NPOV. It should be renamed into a Methodology". It should explain that:

• Only a fraction of authors (a list is short, and the exhaustive list should be presented) believe "MKuCR" is a separate phenomenon. It should be explained that other authors openly criticize this point of view.
• It should explain how the the authors who believe "MKuCR" were a single phenomenon count the victims, and what categories are included. It should be explained that the major amount of victims are victims of famine in the countries that were poor and prone to famine. It should be explained that the idea to describe famine as mass killing is not universally supported, and for each famine the opinia should be presented about its intentionality (there still are debates over Holodomor, Volga famine is not considered mass killing by majority of authors, there are little debates over Cambodian genocidal famine, Chinese famine in general is not considered genocide, etc). It should be explained that proponents of the "MKuCR" add civil war victims to the total "MKuCR" death toll, etc.
• Causes of all major killings and other mass mortality cases should be briefly explained from the point if view of historians who study these events separately. --Paul Siebert (talk) 17:49, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Under the circumstances, I suggest a "historiography" section, in which these disagreements can be discussed. This would then allow us to divide the rest of the article by causes (state killing versus famine etc), thus avoiding the problem of violating NPOV by following the structure set out by only a few of the sources. Vanamonde (talk) 04:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems it is very close to what I proposed below. The only difference is I propose a division not by causes, but by categories, which is not the same, because, for example, the death from hunger may have different causes (genocidal famine, unintentional famine as a result of different causes, etc.) Different historians may disagree over the causes for the deaths belonging to the same category.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:51, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the lead has serious problems. Below I describe few of them.

• "The higher death estimates range in the tens of millions, while some scholars, counting only direct government actions, use lower totals. In his summary of the estimates inclusive of indirect government acts, in The Black Book of Communism, Martin Malia suggested a total death toll of between 85 and 100 million people."

These two sentences, if they are understood in a context of each other are misleading. 85 million are not the victims of direct government actions. This should be fixed simply because this is false. Second, Malia is not an author of the Black Book, he wrote a foreword to the English translation to it. Malia, and Courtois are controversial authors, and both Malia's and Courtois introductions are severely criticized, so they cannot represent scholarly consensus. The very BB is called "provocative" by other authors. That mean, the lead uses the data from the most dubious part of a very provocative book, and we pretend it summarizes mainstream views!

• "In particular, the number of comparative studies suggesting causes is limited. " This statement is blatantly false. There is a vast amount of comparative studies, but they compare one regime (or one event) with another (Hitler vs Stalin, Cambodian genocide vs Rwandian genocide, Chinese famine vs Bengal famine). The do not do that in a context of Communism, which means the correct statement is as follows:

"The number of comparative studies suggesting a common causes of between different mass mortality events in different Communists states s limited. Most authors discuss these events in a broader historical context."

That statement would be correct. I am intended to fix that, please, provide me a reason why I should not do that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:02, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The word "total" is pretty clear, and most people would think of "total" as including "all" and not "more than all" nor "some". Are you saying that Malia did not state those figures? If so - who did come up with the 865 million total. As long as we attribute Malia's statement to Malia - why is there a problem? Opinions clearly ascribed and stated are generally usable on Wikipedia. And recall this article is still able to be protected if WP:CONSENSUS is violated. Collect (talk) 18:14, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mmm, I say what I say, namely, that (i) Malia does not reflect consensus, and his opinion is highly criticised by others, and (ii) 85 million do include famine, civil war and disease victims, which are not considered as victims of direct government actions by other authors. (iii) Malia's opinion can and should be present in the article, it should be attributed to him and placed into a proper context in the article, not in the lead.

I expect from you an explanation of why this statement should be in the lead, and what is the reason to claim Malia expresses a scholarly consensus on this subject. A threat with a new round of a edit war is hardly productive.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad you have no objection regarding the second sentence ("In particular, the number of comparative studies ...").--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:50, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the lead could be slightly fixed, but not in the way suggested by Paul Siebert.

1. In particular, the number of comparative studies suggesting causes is limited... This should be completely excluded. We should not tell anything the reasons/causes of the killings unless these reasons are clearly and specifically stated in the body of page. The causes can be included, but then we need to clearly and specifically summarize what they actually are - according to the body of the page.
2. Let's keep it more factual, i.e. keep the numbers of victims (agree with Collect) and add more numbers. My very best wishes (talk) 20:49, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Taking into account that, in opinion of many scholars, figures are blurring the factual side of this story, your #2 looks somewhat self-contradicting...--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:53, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I would much prefer replacing Malia, who is after all synthesizing the various sources in the BBOC without regard to varied methodology, with multiple estimates from within the scholarly works. We don't have to provide a total, and if there's better estimates for specific phenomena related to MKUCR (ie for the famines, the gulags, etc) we should present those instead. Vanamonde (talk) 04:36, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've proposed a new version below. Presenting various estimates is still non-neutral, because only those authors provide their estimates who support the "generic Communist" concept. Other authors, who focus on these events separately, do not play this game at all. To present their viewpoint, we will have to engage in synthesis. Upper estimate (Malia) can be given, but no universally accepted low estimate exist, because the discussion about the numbers is directly likned with the discussion on who should be considered as victims. It is better to move it into the main article. --Paul Siebert (talk) 06:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I think an obvious problem is that we only list specific numbers for higher death totals and not the lower ones. A secondary problem is that we're probably putting WP:UNDUE weight on the Black Book of Communism by making it the sole source cited specifically in that section of the lead - it is a very controversial book and, therefore, not one that should be given such heavy weight. A paragraph or two devoted to it further down in the article is fine; making it the sole source mentioned by name in the lead obviously is not. --Aquillion (talk) 04:48, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but there is a concrete reason for that. The total figures come from the authors who believe there was a significant commonality between all mass mortality events in Communist states. The authors who do not believe Communist ideology played a significant role in that prefer to discuss these events separately. Usually, these authors do not use terminology like "mass killing" etc, and prefer more neutral words "premature deaths", for example. These authors simply do not think it makes sense to add number of deaths in China, USSR and Cambodia, because to them the commonality between Cambodia and USSR is less obvious that, for example, between Cambodia, Indonesia and Rwanda. As a result, the way this article is organized creates prerequisites for its intrinsic bias.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:00, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another problem in the lead is that it devotes too much attention to cumulative figures: it gives two estimates by different authors, although a calculation of the death toll is not the key point of the article.

Below, a version of the lead is presented where most NPOV issues are resolved.

"Mass killings and mass mortality events occurred under twentieth century Communist regimes. As a rule, they were a result of social transformations and occurred during civil wars, political repression campaigns, persecution of some social or ethnic groups, as well as of famine and disease. The highest death tolls occurred under Stalinist regime in the Soviet Union, Mao Zedong's China, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Several authors (Malia, Courtois) attribute these deaths directly to Communism, and they claim the combined Communist death toll amounted up to 70 million. Other historian do not consider generic Communism as a sole or a primary cause of those events. Most historical studies describe these events separately and in a broader historical context."

--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:29, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, this lead replaces factual information by some kind of debate, i.e. "social transformations", etc. My very best wishes (talk) 20:51, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Social transformations" are taken from Valentino and Snyder.

"Information" is not an argument, because the lead has to provide a complete and balanced information. The present version provides just a minority viewpoint, it distorts it and present a minority views as mainstream ones, as I already explained elsewhere.

You argumentation does not address my reasonable concern and is frivolous. --Paul Siebert (talk) 21:08, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Most historical studies describe these events separately and in a broader historical context." What does it mean? Which events are described separately? Stalinism and Great Terror? My very best wishes (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe your last question was not serious: Great Terror occurred is Stalinist USSR, so these two things can be compared only as a part and as whole. As I already explained, Great Terror is usually discussed as a separate event (not in a context of Cambodian Genocide, for example). Moreover, many author explicitly object to the idea these were some commonalities between these two events. According to David-Fox,

"Malia thus counters by coining the category of "generic Communism," defined everywhere down to the common denominator of party movements founded by intellectuals. (Pol Pot's study of Marxism in Paris thus comes across as historically more important than the gulf between radical Soviet industrialism and the Khmer Rouge's murderous anti-urbanism.) "

Furthermore, Stalin's Great terror, collectivisation and famine are compared with Nazi killings (I provided a link to Snyder's article, another comparison was made by Wheatcroft). Cambodian genocide is compared with Indonesian genocide. Chinese famine with Bengal famine. In all comparisons, Communism does not serve as a key factor.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:37, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is precisely the view by the majority of sources that the "Communism" political system (in the Soviet and other versions) was the key factor in all these killings. How and why exactly is a matter of debate. This is just like the Nazism was the "key factor" in the Holocaust. Other genocides (Armenian, etc.) had other "key factors" and therefore belong to other pages. My very best wishes (talk) 01:28, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a source for that claim? TFD (talk) 01:44, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I second. That Communism was the key factor, is the Malia's "generic Communism" concept. It has been criticized by David-Fox (see, for example, the above quote), and I found no criticism of David-Fox's opinion in the literature. Kiernan (a leading expert in Cambodia) does not see Communism as a key factor of Cambodian Genocide (Communism was just one out of three factors). Famine experts do not see Communism as a sole key factor of Chinese famine, and so on.

I would see truly good sources that support this your claim. So far, I presented many sources, and you presented nothing.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Those are sources currently used on this page in section Proposed causes. My very best wishes (talk) 02:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If they are mainstream, you will be quite capable of providing needed references as I requested in the "Is "Generic Communism" concept mainstream?" section.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:03, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Malia says, "On the one side, commentators in the liberal Le Monde argue that it is illegitimate to speak of a single Communist movement from Phnom Penh to Paris. Rather, the rampage of the Khmer Rouge is like the ethnic massacres of third-world Rwanda; or the "rural" Communism of Asia is radically different from the "urban" Communism of Europe; or Asian Communism is really only anticolonial nationalism.... In answer, commentators in the conservative Le Figaro, spurning reductionist sociology as a device to exculpate Communism, reply that Marsist-Leninist regimes are cast in the same ideological and organizational mold throughout the world." (Black Book, p. xiv)[31] So he specifically does not say that there is consensus in mainstream scholarship that Communism is the "key factor" in all these killings. It would be like assuming that whatever the talk show hosts on Fox News Channel were saying represented mainstream academic consensus. TFD (talk) 03:05, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Leaving all unsubstantiated statement regarding "mainstreamness" beyond the scope, do you have any comments on the proposed lead text?--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's shocking how people still try to whitewash communism's dozens of millions of victims under various pretexts such as the ridiculous claim the Khmer Rouge genocide was not communist. Of course these all were forms of one "generic" communism. All these attempts to construct socialist society were based on the same idols - Marx, Engels, Lenin - and the results everywhere were surprisingly similar.Miacek (talk) 04:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Miacek, we are not whitewashing or blaming something, we are trying to reflect what mainstream reliable sources say.

Remember, incorrectly blaming someone in a real crime is tantamount to whitewashing someone else. Thus, recent blaming of Communism in millions and millions deaths coincides with whitewashing of Nazism. For example, I know that in some post-Communist countries many Nazi criminals are currently being whitewashed under the pretext that they were fighting against Communism, which is a greater evil than Nazism was. Is it the result you want to achieve? I doubt in that. You are a quite reasonable person.

I already explained that, and I reiterate it: when I claim that Nazism killed "just" 6 million Jews, not 12 million, I am not whitewashing Nazism, I am telling truth about its crimes. If I claim that Stalinism during Great Purge executed "just" 1.2 million people , not 5 million, as we were being told previously, I am not whitewashing Stalinism.

If the concept of "generic Communism" is criticised by mainstream sources, we have to reflect that, no matter whether one likes it or not.--Paul Siebert (talk) 06:04, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just read what professionals write about the causes of Khmer Rouge genocide. Kiernan monograph, for example. --Paul Siebert (talk) 06:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support new version I don't claim extensive knowledge about the subject; however it appears clearly that there is a scholarly debate on this topic and thus we must represent that. Arguments against appear personal beliefs. If there is a debate, that is what we must present per NPOV (not "factual information", which appears just one point of view and a death toll that varies depending on how you count it, and which has been criticized) Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• This is generally an improvement. However, a few concerns: per WP:CLAIM, that isn't a word we should be using; I'm still not seeing where Courtois makes the 100 million claim; I'm hesitant about the "social transformations", but that bit can simply be excised; I'm not a fan of presenting Malia in isolation (yes, I know we do now, but that's because that was an incremental improvement on the previous version) and I would suggest once again that we present several estimates in the lead, including for the large single events. Vanamonde (talk) 06:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, BB tells about 94 million, but I think Valentino's estimates (70 million) are more recent and trustworthy. Corrected.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:38, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I need to refresh my memory, but it seems to be the Valentino's words. He believes a specific feature of Communist killings that they were a result of social transformations. Snyder says the same, but he, as many good specialists, speak only about his own subject, Stalinism. --Paul Siebert (talk) 07:04, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The whitewashing of Nazi crimes in some post-Communist countries such as Estonia and Latvia where it indeed takes place is a topic of its own and does not justify downplaying the communisms's victims here.Miacek (talk) 10:03, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is "correction mo a smaller side" always "downplaying"? If Snyder says the scale of Stalinism victims was smaller than we believed earlier. Does it means he is "downplaying" or "whitewashing" anything? Again, if a newer study says Hitler killed 6 million Jews, not 8 million, does it necessarily "downplay" Nazism crimes?--Paul Siebert (talk) 11:58, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Taking into account that C.J. Griffin also supports the proposed texts (with corrections), I conclude a consensus has been achieved about the proposed version of the lead. If anybody has any substantiated arguments against this version or wants to propose additional changes, please do that in next two days, because I am planning to implement the proposed change on Tuesday.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:07, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. For example, it tells: "Other scholars criticize this "generic Communism" concept as politically motivated. Most historical studies describe these events separately and in a broader historical context." What does it mean? What is "generic Communism"? Which events are "described separately"? Which studies? Can anyone explain? This all reads like nonsense to me. My very best wishes (talk) 03:37, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this sentence is not completely neutral. I modified it. Regarding the sources, see, e.g., the sources cited by me and others in the "Comparison to other mass killings" sub-section on this talk page.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:47, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This suppose to be a "summary" of the page. Right now it explicitly contradicts content on the page ("States where mass killings have occurred" followed by the long list pf specific countries). I am not saying current version of the lead is great, but this needs to be summarized differently (I can try if that's OK). My very best wishes (talk) 13:46, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not. It says "The highest death tolls occurred under", which does not imply there were no killings in other states. I consider this argument illogical and frivolous. --Paul Siebert (talk) 16:55, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We could write something like this:

The killing of a large numbers of non-combatants has occurred in a number of communist states. The highest death tolls occurred in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. The estimates of the number of non-combatants killed by these three regimes alone range from a low of 21 million to a high of 70 million.^{[nb 1]} There have also been killings on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries. These killings may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide. The estimated total death toll in all communist countries varies widely and reach 100 million people, according to higher estimates.

Please make corrections. I am leaving out the "causes" as something that would require more discussion. My very best wishes (talk) 16:18, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Seems like a reasonable suggestion.Miacek (talk) 16:25, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, because the text does not resolve the main flaw: the figures and terminology are not the major question most sources are discussing. This version is deceptve, because it conceals the the fact that the topic is vaguely defined and consensus is a subject of debates and controversies, it is superficial, and it is more appropriate to some list article like "List of all killing and mass mortality events in Communist countries"--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:55, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The subject is not superficial because the politically-motivated killings and deaths under the communist regimes are discusses as a phenomenon in a number of publications. Should this be refined/clarified? How? My very best wishes (talk) 17:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That question requires a separate discussion, which is marginally relevant to the subject of this section.

Going back to the subject, I still cannot understand which concrete aspects your version of the lead addresses better than the one we are discussing (the one on the top).

The consensus version (on the top) has a quite harmonic structure. In the first sentence, it describes the subject ("killings did occur"). In the second sentence, it outlines modern vision of their mechanism. In the third sentence, it lists three the most notable examples. Then it gives a range of estimate (there is no lowest cumulative estimate, by the way). Then it tells about the key point of disagreement among authors. In summary, it fits a classical scheme: What? How? Who and where? How much? What is unclear? That gives a reader all essential information on the subject.

What does a reader understand from your version? First, they will learn that "A lot of people were killed by Communist regimes" (by the way, the terminology the sentence uses is not universally accepted: famines, by and large, are not considered "killing"). Then the reader sees the third sentence from the first version (ok, I am glad our visions coincide). Then a reader again learns that the number was huge (third sentence). Then the reader learns that some other killings have occurred somewhere else (fourth sentence). Then the reader will learn that these events have different names (fifth sentence). Finally, a reader learns that the combined number of victims was probably very big. In summary, the narrative is jumping back and forward, the whole story creates an impression that the main things a reader need to know about the subject are the figures and terminology. Do you sincerely believe this text is a well written?

To summarise, this is a very non-informative and superficial text focused only on figures and terminology. Are we writing for accountants and lawyers only?

--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:27, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• You disagree with my new version, I disagree with your new version. That's fine. There are currently two explicit votes here, one "pro" and one "against". We simply do not have consensus. Per WP:Consensus, it means old version should stay, or one of us should suggest something new that would be agreeable. You also have another option to change the status quo: please start an RfC about your version. My very best wishes (talk) 02:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, this type arguments are directly discouraged by WP:VOTE. WP:CONSENSUS does not imply you or I have a right of veto, it works in a different way: I provide logical arguments, you provide logical counter-arguments to my arguments, and so on. I made a detailed analysis of the version proposed by you, and I had persuasively explained why concretely your version is not satisfactory - you haven't even bothered to respond to my criticism. I accepted one reasonable argument from your side (and made a change in the proposed text) and demonstrated (with sources) why your another argument was incorrect - you did nothing of this kind. In addition, one uninvolved editor provided logical arguments in support of my version (and this support goes far beyond merely "I like it") - your "support" is limited with "I like it".

In summary, what happens here is suspiciously close to the attempt of filibustering or gaming a system. I don't think it is correct, even from a formal viewpoint: the editors were not invited to vote, they were invited to comment: for example, Vanamonde's comment was accepted, and I made some changes (since Vanamonde didn't mention anything else, that should be interpreted as a general support). Your reasonable argument was also accepted (and the changes made). One more editor supported the text elsewhere on the talk page. That means even a formal vote count is not working. One way or the another, civil and collaborative approach always prevails, so it would be better if you presented some new arguments by 21:00 tomorrow. --Paul Siebert (talk) 03:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I already said: your version is simply not a summary of the content on the page. For example, saying "as a rule, they were a result of social transformations" is not a summary of anything, wrong and your original research, or possibly a quotation of single source out of context. In addition you distort claims by living persons in the lead [32]. My very best wishes (talk) 12:07, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, as the proposed lead does not follow Wikipedia's Manual of Style for lead sections, among other reasons. If we want to fix the NPOV issues, let's do it right! The proposed lead fails to provide an accessible overview for the ordinary reader, whom we write for. It's too short; MOS:LEADLENGTH suggests four paragraphs for an article this length, something which should be easily achievable if we take the time to summarize from the entire article. In that spirit, I wonder if a new lead should come after the entire article is overhauled, if such an overhaul is deemed necessary. At any rate, in terms of content, the words were a result of social transformations and should be removed from the proposed lead. The concept of "social transformations" is neither defined nor treated in enough depth within the article to warrant it being in the lead. Now, if the term "social transformations" is, at some point, clearly defined and treated in the article, it could certainly belong. I'm just not sure that it does now. I'm also hesitant about removing the various "Terms used to define these killings" as seen in the lead now. I contend that they are helpful to the average reader, whom, again, we must keep in consideration here. schetm (talk) 07:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Great schetm, thank you. I'll try to modify the text according to MOS. With regard to "social transformations", I used the Valentino's concept: he, as well as Mildarsky, Semelin and Weitz, belongs to what Straus calls "second generation genocide scholars", and I think the article should follow the approach outlined by these modern authors (in contrast to obsolete Rummel, Lemkin, and others, who should be mentioned mostly in a context of subject's history). Valentino defines mass killings as killings of more than 50,000 victims, and that seems a reasonable approach. He also defines Communist mass killings as a subset of a more broader category, "disposessive mass killing". According to Valentino, a distinctive feature of Communist mass killings is that they are used as a tool to achieve some social transformations. Anyway, I'll start a new section where a modified and expanded lead will be presented for further discussion.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fixing your version of the lead is fine, but it nullifies all previous votes. When you make final version of your lead, please repost it again. My very best wishes (talk) 13:08, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Again, this is not a vote, and I do not provide my version. The text is supposed to be a result of a collective work. --Paul Siebert (talk) 13:28, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment This version of lead also openly misrepresents claims by Stéphane Courtois. According to him ("Black Book", Introduction) this is not 70 million, but around 100 million (a conservative estimate). My very best wishes (talk) 11:57, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not. Courtous is a controversial and provocative source (per David-Fox and others), so I, following the comments from other users, removed this source from the lead. This source reflects a minority views, so it should be discussed in the article, not in the lead.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:02, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You wrote: "Several authors (Malia, Courtois) attribute these deaths directly to Communism, and they claim the combined Communist death toll amounted up to 70 million". This is an obvious misrepresentation, sorry. My very best wishes (talk) 13:08, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. I forgot to remove their names from the draft. Yes, more modern and less controversial authors should be used in the lead.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:28, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think any authors should be mentioned in the lead. This is a summary of the page, and none of the authors is individually notable enough to be mentioned in the lead. But providing the range of estimates for the number of victims is necessary. When providing the range, one must count all notable academics, and not only Stéphane Courtois, but also Rudolph Rummel, etc. You can't dismiss any notable academics simply because some other academics happened to disagree with them. They always disagree on something. This is normal. My very best wishes (talk) 14:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you are right. Actually, I didn't mean to name anybody, I proposed to use their methodology. The authors you mentioned are notable, but notability does not warrant reliability. Both authors mentioned by you are controversial, Rummel was famous for his refusal to reconsider his old estimates in light of new data (in contrast to, for example, Conquest). Actually, his data for the USSR look especially ridiculous taking into account that an impressive life expectancy growth was observed in the USSR (see Wheatcroft's data), that can be compared only with similar growth in Japan. It is absolutely unclear, how could such a tremendous growth have occurred concurrently with apocalyptic "democide". Rummel has also been severely criticized for methodological flaws: he uses Math apparatus in a very dubious way, which makes his conclusions worthless. Just imagine: he claims "democide" in post WWII USSR killed 20 million people. Can anybody who lived in the USSR during those times seriously believe in that? Rummel is outdated and simply incorrect. With regard to Courtois, please, stop it. You had been explained Courtois's introduction is the worst part of the BB, and even its major contributors disassociated themselves from Coutrois.

With regard to the range, it will be presented in the lead only if anybody proposed a brief explanation of what do these numbers mean. For example, we all know that the Holocaust was the murder of Jews, who were either massively executed by Nazi and their collaborators, or killed in death camps. The Holocaust defined in this way killed about 6 million people. If we add Gypsies, or Soviet POWs (which is not universally supported) the number is different. If I write "according to various estimates, 6-8 million people were killed during the Holocaust", that would be extremely misleading, because it would imply there is no agreement on the number of victims. That would be a lie, because the number is known, however, it is not clear who can be considered the Holocaust victim.

However, I am not aware of any source that provides combined figures for all victims of direct actions of all Communist governments and excludes the victims of famine, disease, civil wars (where all parties were engaged in killing). That means, if you will combine known figures and present them in the lead, it will be an original research. That means, per our policy, no lower estimate can be presented in the lead, unless a reliable source is provided. With regard to high estimate, Valentino's data are more trustworthy, and, if we accept his definition of mass killing ("killing of more than 50,000 people), this figure seems quite acceptable.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:01, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sure, there is no agreement on the number of victims of Communist regimes. I am not sure if there is an agreement on the number of victims of Nazism. Obviously, that would not be only Jewish people killed during the Holocaust; the number could be several times greater. But as long as there is no consensus on the numbers, using range of numbers is completely appropriate, and I would be opposed to any version of the lead that does not provides such numbers, given that they are really important here. My very best wishes (talk) 16:34, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You seem refuse to understand: these are two different questions: "how many?" and "who should be included?". You may think only Jews are considered the Holocaust victims, or you may believe other categories were victims too, but that dispute is not about the figures (the figures are known), the dispute is about which numbers are included.

The Holocaust article says that 6 million Jews were killed, and if the broadest definition is used, the number of victims is 17 million. However, it is incorrect to say, the estimated range from 6 to 17. These are not estimates. These are different interpretations of known figures.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:32, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is no any problem here. We provide the number of people who were killed or died as a result of policies by the Communist states - as claimed by the sources (A,B, C...). What exactly it means should be explained in the body of page and briefly mentioned in the lead (one or two phrases). For example, it is customary to include the victims of man-made hunger in the numbers for USSR and China, people who died in labor camps, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 19:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That is the problem. The same Steven Rosenfielde who coined the term "Red Holocaust" believes that during Yeltsyn's time about 6 million people died prematurely in Russia as a result of the state policies (I already provided the reference in one of threads on this talk page). Would it be correct to say "they were killed"? Yes, some pro-CPRF writer in some Zavtra article may call them victims of democracy, but, I believe you we are not agree with that, aren't we? Note, Rosefielde uses absolutely the same methodology for calculation of the scale of premature deaths in 1932-33 and in 1991-99. I believe you agree there were no mass killing of that scale in democratic Russia during that time. Maybe, that means "premature deaths" and "mass mortality" not always mean "mass killing"?

When the article with the title "Mass killings ....." tells about mass mortality, it implies all these deaths were real, Holocaust type killing. However, taking into account that only a small fraction of the population loss in Communist countries was a result of deliberate killing, the article and the lead must clearly explain that the major part of "mass killing" victims were not killed from a commonsensual point of view, but died prematurely as a result of malnutrition (non necessarily real starvation) or diseases, and the question is still open whether all these events were a result of deliberate government policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:50, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I definitely support rewriting the lead in some form; the current version is not workable, since it places undue weight on a single source. I would point out (as I mentioned above) that it feels like a violation of WP:NPOV and WP:TONE to list some specific numbers and only vaguely allude to the existence of others; additionally, if we're going to mention differences in numbers at all, we also need to go into more detail on the dispute over how those are reached (especially the disagreement over the extent to which those regimes are culpable for starvation, which is absolutely central to the topic and the dispute over it, but which is only vaguely alluded to in the current lead. "Direct" vs. "indirect" is not sufficient. This is especially true since the title of the article is the fairly specific mass killings under Communist regimes, which means that (unless we agree to rename the article0, we are constrained to using only figured that directly and unambiguously ascribe all their deaths to the regime's direct actions. In particular, my reading of Malia is that his ~100 million figure is for all deaths directly or indirectly ascribable to Communism by any means, not merely all people killed in mass-killings. Based on that alone, we should probably take that figure out and replace it with one whose source unambiguously describes the deaths resulting from mass killings in as many words. (Or, of course, alternatively, we could change the article's title to cover deaths that occurred under or resulted from Communism more broadly, rather than just people executed in mass killings.) --Aquillion (talk) 04:56, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Malia is not an expert at all, the BB is a provocative sources (not my words, reliable sources say that), an it will be removed. I am thinking about a consensus version that take into account reasonable criticism of other editors. If you want to join this process, please, propose your draft in a new section (this one is too long).

Some information: Valentino defines mass killing as killing of 50,000+ people, and Communist mass killings as a subtype of dispossessive mass killing (killing via dispossession of something). He also asserted this specific type mass killing was used by regimes to implement social transformations. This has some interesting consequences: thus, Afghanistan is not an example of Communist mass killing, because it was just an ordinary anti-guerilla warfare (the same as what US did in Vietnam). I think it is a good starting point.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:12, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since this article is written based on the "Generic Communism" concept, per WP:BURDEN, I would to see the evidences this concept is mainstream. In my opinion, we can answer this question by providing a significant amount of articles or books written by leading experts in narrow field (for example, Stalinist repressions, Cambodian genocide, etc), which are written from the point of view of the "generic Communism" concept and make a direct reference to the works of its creators. All specialized sources available to me do not tell Communism as an ideology was a primary cause of mass killings. Can anybody provide the special works in each major field: Stalinist killings, Mao's famine, and Pol Pot's genocide, which support the idea of generic Communism as a primary cause of these events? These sources should the works of leading experts of the field.

So far, I found nothing. For example, the Kiernan's book on Cambodian genocide cites the Black Book, but references are made to the chapter written by Werth, who himself disagrees with Courtois introduction. It seems Courtois' point of view on the central role of Communism in mass killings and Cambodian genocide in particular is not shared by Kiernan, at least, in a context of Cambodian case. And we have to keep in mind that Kiernan is a much better expert in Cambodia than Courtois or Malia.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:24, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article, which achieved consensus in the past, does not refer to "generic communism" therefore this cavil is outré. The acts of Pol Pot are pretty uniformly identified with his Maoist doctrines and training by reliable sources, so eliminating him would basically require OR to remove his acts. So, I demur with your position. Collect (talk) 15:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt admins have a tendency to freeze the articles for 5+ years after consensus has been achieved. And, alas, MVBW's post below brilliantly refutes your point.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, certainly. All these countries are described together in books on the subject of "communist countries", whatever the source, "Black book", the "Communism" by Pipes, and even in the old Soviet history textbooks, where they were usually named "socialist countries" which belonged to the same category. The "Generic Communism" is a fantasy/WP:OR.My very best wishes (talk) 18:59, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This your post simultaneously states the generic Communism is a mainstream viewpoint and that is a fantasy. You also blame me in OR, despite the fact that the reference has been provided on this talk page to the reputable secondary source that explains what does "generic Communism" means. Can you please read carefully the posts of others before commenting?--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I would not agree that the article achieved consensus in the past. It was, in fact, bitterly contentious to the point where it ended up locked for seven years; it has been "stable" for that period only because it was essentially impossible to edit. Given that history, the usual assumption that longstanding text enjoys consensus obviously does not apply. --Aquillion (talk) 04:45, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since "generic Communism" is a non-fringe minority revisionist viewpoint, it should be reflected in the article. I propose to provide cumulative figures and to split them on topics.

1. Genocide. This section should contain the events that were officially recognised as genocide. If I am not wrong, only Cambodian genocide was legally recognized. We provide a brief description, causes of deaths and the number of victims. The events whose genocidal nature was not universally recognized (Soviet famine etc) should be mentioned here, but the numbers should not be provided.
2. Civil war. Russian civil war, Chinese civil war, Chinese collectivisation, which was a continuation of a civil war, etc. Brief description, causes. Number of victims for each event. Total number.
3. Political repressions. Great purge, Gulag, Cultural revolution, etc. Brief description, causes. Number of victims for each event. Total number.
4. Famine. Great Leap famine, Soviet famines (including Soviet famine aka Holodomor), etc. Brief description, causes. Number of victims for each eent. Total number.
5. Deaths as a result of other social transformations (????).

That is a way to bring more structure to this extremely fragmentary article and to avoid OR.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:47, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please see my suggestion above about causes. Vanamonde (talk) 05:18, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Answered above.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:52, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article does not use any term akin to "generic communism" so that is a pretty useless track to follow, alas. Collect (talk) 15:01, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Although the article does not mention "generic Communism" category, it is written based on it, because it implies some significant commonality between all events it discusses, and this commonality is more significant that a commonality with other events. Anyway, your POV versus my reliable sources. Do you have to say anything concrete?--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:03, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Have you thought about adding some materials to the article from this source? Do you have access to the full article and can you provide a link here if you do?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have full access to that source, and can send you the text if you send me an email. Regards, Vanamonde (talk) 17:56, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

C.J. Griffin, not only I have an access to this source (and most sources cited therein), I am building my arguments on it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:57, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed this correction in the lead [33]. Well, it was exactly the point by "Black Book" and some other books (e.g. "Communism: a history" by Pipes) that ALL communist systems, including Pol Pot version, resulted in political repressions and killings. Which communist countries did not? Please name them. This is because all such regimes were "totalitarian". My very best wishes (talk) 18:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Valentino, one of the primary sources cited here, asserts on page 91 of his book Final Solutions that "most regimes that have described themselves as communist or have been described as such by others have not engaged in mass killing." This is quite a glaring omission from the article given the excessive use of his book, no? Perhaps this should be corrected.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 19:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, but this source [34] tells on page 91 that "mass killings on a smaller scale appear to have been carried out by Communist regimes in North Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe and Africa". So, that is exactly what all these sources tell: the mass killings had happen in ALL these countries, but the scale was different. But once again, if source X tells that mass killing did not happen at all in country Y, that can be used. My very best wishes (talk) 19:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"appear to have been carried" ≠ "have been carried", and Cuba is not in Africa or Eastern Europe. --Paul Siebert (talk) 19:16, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

These books tell very clearly about political killings in these countries. Are you saying there was no Political executions in Cuba by the Castro regime? My very best wishes (talk) 19:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What I am saying is based on your own arguments. Your conclusion is not based on the argumants provided by you. By the way, not every killing perpetrated by Communist regimes were considered Communist killing by Valentino.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

These were not mass killings. It might have been horrible, but please be precise about the subject. RhinoMind (talk) 20:54, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Said who? You? The source/book linked above tells that "mass killings on a smaller scale appear to have been carried out by Communist regimes in North Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe and Africa". Sure, one should bring more sources. My very best wishes (talk) 22:34, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Sure, one should bring more sources" I can only agree. RhinoMind (talk)

I think I will close this thread by naming a few communist countries where mass killings did not happen under communist regimes. Here goes: Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Yugoslavia, Albania, Hungary (could be debated?), East Germany (could be debated?), Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. These are all in Europe. On top of that I am not aware of any mass killings in Vietnam after the war ended, neither in Laos. Also the famines and their victims in communist China, in spite of their horror, are not regarded as mass killings by genocide scholars. From present times, I am not aware of any mass killings in South Africa, Nepal or Kerala (in India). I think we can close this thread by now. RhinoMind (talk) 20:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania should be excluded, simply because they had never been Communist. They were parts of the USSR during the second part of XX century, and there were mass killing there.

Anyway, a consensus seems to have been achieved about the new version of the lead, and the current text will be replaced soon with the new one.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I guess so. Still, the article is full of stuff that does not categorize as "mass killings". Even the headline of this thread gets it wrong. RhinoMind (talk) 21:09, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@RhinoMind: wow, just wow. Mass killings never took place in Estonia or Latvia? Out of the 15 ministers of the last legitimate government of Estonia only 1 survived. Almost all higher officers were killed. Etc. Just reading a bit [35] before shouting out bold opinions would help.Miacek (talk) 21:24, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is just a bunch of WP:OR. (a) RhinoMind did not provide any sources to support their statements (which sources tell it did not happen in Romania for example?!); (b) The political killings had happen in Estonia and Latvia when they were a part of the Soviet Union, and that is covered by the Valenino and others, (c) South Africa and Nepal were not communist countries. And so on and so on. My very best wishes (talk) 22:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, the "all communist regimes" is just not going to fly. The number of communist and socialist governments across the world has been very large over the last 100 years; saying that they all committed mass killings is an exceptional claim, that requires more than just the BBOC as a source. If that were not enough, the status quo version, which existed before full-protection was removed, had the word "many", not "all"; and consensus is required to change it, consensus which is completely absent at this point. Vanamonde (talk) 05:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Difference should be made between communist regimes and communist participation in a multiparty government (such as in France after WW2 for some time). Communist regimes, i.e. the ones were the communist party held the monopoly of power in the country, always led to mass repressions.Miacek (talk) 10:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, Miacek, I think you may have missed the point here. Nobody is interested in denying mass killings under Stalin, Mao, and several others. The point is that if we say "all", we are saying every communist-run national government in history perpetrated mass killings. What evidence do we have of mass killings in Yemen, for instance? Or Madagascar? What states are we referring to when we say "all communist regimes" in the first place? Most importantly, what sources besides the BBOC say that all communist regimes perpetrated mass killings? Vanamonde (talk) 10:30, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is just unclear phraseology on this page. It is not clear what "mass killing" means. 1% of population? Replace "mass killing" by "political killing" and it will be in all countries. But I am fine with simply saying what sources say, namely it was definitely "mass killing" in several specified countries (the list), and repression and political killings on a smaller scale in other communist countries. However, that other countries should be covered on this page because according to the source, "mass killings on a smaller scale appear to have been carried out by Communist regimes in North Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe and Africa", so these countries are relevant to the subject - they are within the scope. Which exactly countries in Eastern Europe, Africa etc.? Did this book names them explicitly? If not, we have other sources, like the "Black Book" which names them and provides relevant info. My very best wishes (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: If the Black Book mentions anything, it should be fairly straightforward to get the proper basic sources to that info. The Black Book is not a primary source of anything, it just uses a lot of sources to produce a conjecture. This is very clearly stated and explained in the book's own introduction. So all-in-all, never use the Black Book as a source: If it is in the Black Book there should (hopefully) be a reference to a proper source in there to use instead. RhinoMind (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@My very best wishes: About the term "mass killings". The problem of the vaguely defined term "mass killings" have been a source of much debate on this talkpage previously. It is a good idea to read this short text about Valentino's book in particular ([36]). I know that his book is controversial, but as it is used extensively for statements in this wiki-article, it is a good idea to read what defines a mass killing in Valentinos case. To sum it up: More than 50,000 intentional killings of non-combatants over a period of five years. RhinoMind (talk) 16:36, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you start talking about "political killings", we're a) veering further from the source material, and b) talking about a phenomenon that is present under virtually every government and government type in the world; so that's not a productive line to follow. Mass killings are dealt with as a semi-coherent phenomenon by reliable sources, even if they don't always offer clear and non-contradictory definitions. I would oppose an attempt to list all countries, because that would be tantamount to equating atrocities under Stalin and Mao, which run to millions (or tens of millions, depending on how you calculate it) with much smaller phenomena elsewhere. Vanamonde (talk) 13:51, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No one is going to equate different countries. To avoid it one should simply indicate the numbers for every country. The countries currently included on the page are selected as follows: (a) these countries are described as "communist countries/regimes" in sources, and (b) there were large-scale political repressions and executions in these countries - according to sources. That seems logical to me. If you want to change it, I think we would need an RfC. Another possible solution is to rename this page to Political killings under Communist regimes or something else (please suggest something). My very best wishes (talk) 15:31, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not suggesting changing the scope of this article in the least. We have sources describing mass killings in certain countries; the article lists those, and discusses the killings. My point is that if you make this about "political killings" because you want to list all communist governments, then you are changing the scope of the page, and that would need an RFC, which is very unlikely to succeed. Vanamonde (talk) 15:39, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So, we do agree that the current scope of this page is fine? I think that resolves everything. Thank you. My very best wishes (talk) 16:01, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My Very Best Wishes, when you change sourced text, please provide sources to back up your text. Note too that the way we determine whether or not all Communist regimes committed mass killings is not collective original research, but by using sources. Just saying that the Black Book claimed something is not specific enough, you need a page no. TFD (talk) 23:06, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a source that says all CRs committed mass killings? Your question asks us to conduct original research instead of relying on the judgments in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 23:06, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TFD, I think this conversation is becoming senseless, because I am intended to replace the old lead with a new version (see the NPOV lead section). It seems we almost achieved consensus, and, unless My Very ..etc provides any reasonable arguments in response to my criticism, the new version will be in the paper tomorrow, 21:00 CET. BTW, your comments are warmly welcome. --Paul Siebert (talk) 23:22, 14 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think this article should clearly explain that lion's share of all victims of Communist mass killings were famine victims (at least 40 million out of roughly 70). In connection to that, we need to devote more space to the works authored by famine experts (Wheatcroft, O'Grada, et all) who provide comparative study of each Communist famine with other historical famines. Interestingly, when they write about the immediate cause of mortality, they note, whereas Irish or other famine were accompanied by disease outbreak, the level of infectious diseases was only insignificantly elevated during man-made famine in USSR or China, which they attribute to the improvement of health care. In addition, the narrative should be put in a historical context. It must be explained (as O'Grada says), that Chinese rural area was constantly living at the brink of famine, and devastating famine were happening regularly in China. As O'Grada noted, the Great Leap forward was the greatest famine in absolute figures (but not in relative), but is was the last famine in Chinese history. That is absolutely necessary to explain, otherwise a false impression is created that Mao organised the famine in a happy and prosperous country. That was not the case. --Paul Siebert (talk) 02:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think that a more serious problem, as I outlined above, is that the article is about mass killings. Famine can reasonably be included when people allege that it was intentionally and deliberately caused in order to kill people, but it has to be excluded otherwise; that particularly excludes the "100 million people" estimate, since that estimate, as I understand it, is not intended to argue that all of those people were the victims of a mass killing - that number aims to include anyone who died as a result of Communism by any means, including eg. starvation as a result of Communist waste or inefficiency, or deaths in the Russian famine of 1921–22 because it was partially caused by the revolution itself. Those things might be worth covering elsewhere, but they're not mass killings; putting those numbers on this page (let alone prominently) is inaccurate and misleading. --Aquillion (talk) 05:06, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thought provoking remark: I have never seen the victims of mass starvation in North Korea ascribed as mass killings by the United States. Not even if it was caused by extensive intentional sanctions. In fact, I have never seen victims from intentional embargos described as mass killings. I think it would be a good idea to begin doing that, but that is just my personal opinion and not an official practice, as far as I know.

Anyway, as stated by Paul Siebert, inclusion of famine victims as mass killings, demands a mention of why there is no consensus in academia to do to. Good points Paul. RhinoMind (talk) 16:53, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Those Jews who starved to death at Warsaw Ghetto are to my knowledge also included as victims of Nazism. Why this hair-splitting here then?Miacek (talk) 16:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They are, because there is a scholarly consensus that starvation was deliberately organized by Nazi. However, there is no consensus that, for example, Bengal Famine was deliberately organized by British government, although it was a man-made famine as a result of a criminal neglect. --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:41, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The problem lies in the word "intentional". If a harvest fails or the distribution network breaks down, are the victims then intentionally killed by someone? Not necessarily. And one of the criteria for categorizing something as a "mass killing" is that the killings are intentional. Mass starvation events are not automatically categorized as mass killings.RhinoMind (talk) 17:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To answer your Warsaw example, it was official Nazi policy to kill people. That is as intentional as you can get. RhinoMind (talk) 17:20, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The harvest did not fall, it was the deliberate Stalinist policy to request all grain peasants had and let them starve. This was even written in the Perestroika-era Soviet books.Miacek (talk) 17:37, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There were many famines in Russia and the USSR during the time of Stalin. You can take it up on one of these pages if you like: Russian famine of 1921–22, Soviet famine of 1932–33, Soviet famine of 1946–47. I am not sure everyone agrees with you that the killings were intentional, but I am not an expert on Soviet famines specifically, so who knows? Whatever happens, it doesn't discredit Pauls points about famines. RhinoMind (talk) 17:52, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Sure, but the "100 million people" estimate in the lead explicitly includes all deaths to starvation under Communism, not just those under Stalin. It's not presented as a number of people who died to mass killings under communist regimes in the source, it's presented as all people who died because of Communism in any way, shape, or form. (eg. it includes the Russian famine of 1921–22, which was obviously not the result of Stalinist policy, under the argument that it happened because of the Russian Revolution and was exacerbated by Communist policy.) And that makes using that number in this article misleading and inaccurate. You can present individual starvation events as mass killing when you have specific sources arguing that they were the result of an intentional policy of killing people via starvation; but the number in the lead is unambiguously intended to include even starvation that was not intentional, so we can't use it here. We can only use numbers that the sources we're citing them to directly and unambiguously describe as totaling mass killings; this number is all lives lost, by any means, to the tragedy of Communism. People are objecting to that specific number here, not to the general idea that Stalin killed people via famine; if you want to keep that number in the article, you need a source specifically saying that it's the number of mass killings. (Which I don't think exists, because, again, even the source - which is controversial and is one of the ones that pushes for a maximallist view of deaths to Communism - seems to unambiguously identify it as including other deaths.) -Aquillion (talk) 17:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am afraid, a situation is even worse. This figure also includes all premature deaths, or even population losses. Premature deaths in democratic Russia in 90s calculated using the same methodology and by the same author, Rosefielde amount to 6 million. Can we really believe it was a Holocaust type mass killing? --Paul Siebert (talk) 18:35, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(after edit conflict) I've already highlighted these were two different things. The excess moartality under the Soviet rule was deliberately inflicted by utterly wrong policies that could have been avoided, while in 1992 Russia simply had no grain left (we have no reason to doubt Gaidar's confessions here) and the freemarket reforms were the only chance to avoid mass famine due to the collapse of the Soviet socialist system.Miacek (talk) 18:41, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A single explanation for authorities' intentions does not work for all famines, for example, Volga famine in early 20s and Great famine in 32-33 are described differently by most authors. With regard to the rest, I think you do not understand my major point: there were no people who were starving to deaths in Russia in 1990s, no crowds of hungry people, and, in general, living conditions in Russia in 1990s were much better than in many developing countries (both then and now). However, demography data tell 6 million people died prematurely.

Think about that again: if demographic data tell 6 million died as a result of government action, it does necessarily mean government killed them. That means, when we are talking about Soviet famine ot 1932-3, we have two facts. The first fact, there was a serious famine in the USSR in 1932-33, and many people literally died from hunger. The second fact is that Soviet Union sustained about 6-10 million population losses in 1932-33. However, do we have significant evidences to claim all these population losses were results of "mass killings", and if all population losses or premature deaths in 1932-3 were "mass killing", why exactly cannot we speak about "democratic mass killing" in Russia in 1990s?

Note, I do not claim there was any mass killing in Russia in 1990, I just want you to look at that sine ira et studuo.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:20, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think, a solution would be to describe all famine separately in a historical context, and some (proportional to their prominence) space should be devoted to theories that make generalizations and political conclusions. Indeed, in some cases famine was deliberately organized, in some cases it was just a consequence of mismanagement.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:45, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're comparing apples and oranges. Why don't you want to compare instead Russia and the Baltic states with Cuba or North Korea of 1990s, to get a more reasonable comparison of same time/similar background?Miacek (talk) 20:08, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure I understand what do you mean. What should I compare? By the way, NK is hardly a really Communist state: jucje is not based on Marxism (all mention of Marx or Lenin was carefully weeded out from it), and many scholars believe it is an ultra-neo-Confucian society with a rigid hierarchical estate structure. However, that is what experts in NK say. Experts in criticism of Communism prefer to call it Communist....--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:10, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is the same BS that Cambodia under Khmer rouge was not "real" communist etc. Hell, I've even seen claims Lenin was not a "real" communist. But anyway, this not a forum. Why are byou ignoring the Cuba issue? The article says nutrition fell from 3,052 calories per day in 1989 to 2,099 calories per day in 1993. Other reports indicate even lower figures, 1,863 calories per day. Some estimated that the very old and children received only 1,450 calories per day. In Russia conversely, the par capita calory consumption under Gaidar diminished by 3,5% from 2526,88 kCal to 2438,17 kCal.Miacek (talk) 09:00, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is not a forum, so please, stick with what sources say. I've provided a quote from David-Fox, who openly questions the idea that there was anything in common between Khmer Rouge and Stalinists (except, may be, that both studied Marxism when they were young). With rregard to NK, you may be interested to read this [[37]] article that says:

"In all these cases, Confucian rhetoric extolling filiopiety and political loyalty accompanied the building of a strong, centralized, intrusive, and bureaucratic state capable of generating momentum for modern industrial development. Today, the nominally Marxist rulers of China, Vietnam, and North Korea seem to be adopting this approach, despite prior communist claims that Confucianism is "reactionary.""

This [[38]] artcile describing a tremendous role of Confucianism in NK also worth reading. Note, I am using not a garbage authored by suspicious central-European or other dubious writers, but the best quality articles.

The question who can be considered a Communist is not idle. Can African leaders be considered Communists simply because they declare that? Or they must conduct some specific policy to be considered Communists? That question is not idle, because if (i) any nominal Communist is considered a Communist, and (ii) Communism is the greatest evil (as this article says), then the recipe for future dictators is simple: to openly declare their anti-Communism, which provides full protection for their future crimes.

Regarding calories. Sorry, but this is an amateurish BS: democratic transitions in Russia immediately resulted in a huge economic inequality, which means all your "per capita" is not more relevant as an "average temperature of all patients in a hospital". Please, keep in mind that by saying that I do not imply Gaydar was killing people. He definitely cannot be blamed in mass killings. Nevertheless, Rosefielde's statistics tells 6 million people died prematurely. The same statistical approach, used by the same author says about 10 million people died prematurely in the USSR. What allows us to claim all of them were "killed"? Again, I do agree Stalin's regime was really killing people. However, what is the reason to claim all premature deaths calculated by Rosefielde were the victims of mass killings"?--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC) [reply]

--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The omissions in the section on the Soviet famine were pretty bad. I added that not all scholars concur with the genocide thesis, added Mark Tauger as a source and also provided verification of the Davies/Wheatcroft source with a url to the page number in question and adjusted the lower estimate accordingly. This article still needs a ton of work to remove its unrelenting bias, but this helps.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 12:38, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Wheatcroft is better than Tauger. Wheatcroft had a long dispute with Rosefielde about the nature and causes of the Soviet famine. He is also an expert in grain statistics. I can drop you references if you need. I am somewhat busy now, I can join your work next week.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:01, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wheatcroft is perhaps one of the top scholars on the subject, but that is no reason to omit others such as Tauger, who is still far superior to most of the sources cited in this article (i.e., Conquest, Rummel, etc).--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:26, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I do not say Tauger should not be used, I am just telling he is not the best source.

I also noticed your last edit has been reverted (the step I do not support), and I have a feeling all attempts to work on this article is senseless until we develop some tools to collaborate more fruitfully. --Paul Siebert (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Regarding calories." Interesting points you make! So essentially, the average calory intake has no bearing because in North Korea where millions died of famine the income inequality was lower (because all were paupers), while in Russia few died directly of hunger but income inequality was relatively high. (Not everyone became immediately wealthy). Miacek (talk) 14:33, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You are absolutely right about confucian Korea. NK society is separated on several social strata that are actually estates, not class (because children of the parents from some strata belong to the same strata, and it is almost impossible to move from one strata to another. Interestingly, what would Marx say if someone told him it is Communism?

regarding your "Not everyone became immediately wealthy", do you believe premature death of 6 million people is an acceptable price for a society to become wealthy in a distance future? If yes, what is the difference between you and Mao: the hunger caused by his policy killed just a very small percent of Chinese, but as a result the society is becoming really wealthy (the Great Leap forward famine was the last famine in Chinese history)? Remember, 35 million in 600 million China is almost the same as 6 million in 150 million Russia.... --Paul Siebert (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have been moving circles and that I've explained my views already. Mao did NOT make China eventually rich, Deng did. China becoming "really wealthy" is not "a result" of Mao's policies. Also, to highlight it once more, Gaidar's choices were close to optimal, by 1992 there were almost NO better alternatives left. The alternative was a full-blown famine. All chances of piecemeal reform had been lost by then (no matter how much I appreciate Gorbachev his economic ignorance was staggering). Only better alternatives were even more radical reforms as implemented in Estonia and Latvia that led to quicker recovery and eventually a much smaller human loss than in Russia. Remember Ukraine? Bulgaria? Romania? They all did way worse than Russia under Gaidar by choosing the wrong "slow-reform" process.Miacek (talk) 15:12, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you read more about totalitarian regimes, you will learn that a concrete person is less important there than in authoritarian regimes. Mao's economical policy was far from optimal, but O'Grada says it was Mao, who took special measures (for example, construction of plants for large scale production of fertilizers) to prevent similar events in future.

Deng didn't start reforms de novo. Mao eradicated rural landlords, who actually were more like feudals, and who would hardly allow China to become what it is now. It is quite possible that social transformation in China would be possible to do in a less bloody way, but the more I read the more I realize the revolution in China was bloody not because it was Communist, but because it was in China. Do you know that Chinese Communists did not create concentration camps, they simply used Kuomingtang camps?

Regardin Gaydar, it was his reform that paved a way for modern KGB resurrection in Russia. His reform could be good from purely economic point of view, but it completely ignored social factors. He created a situation when majority of population became absolutely disappointed in market economy and democracy (and elected Putin; for the first time, in 2000, in a democtratic elections). Of course, he was a very noble and very good person, who sincerely wanted to improve people's life ... as well as his grandfather did.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think, it is absolutely necessary to add the section with this title, to explain demographic consequences of famine and mass killing, because if we are talking about population losses of that scale, we need to discuss their long lasting consequences. I have some sources about the USSR. The demographic effect of Cambodian genocide should be added there too. If anybody has some source for China, it would be good. --Paul Siebert (talk) 02:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is better left to articles about the specific famines. The real challenge is to show the connection between the various mass killings and explain why for example the famine in the the Ukraine has more in common with the shooting of protesters in Romania than it does with the famine in Ireland. Or how Communist killings of Islamists in Afghanistan differs from killings by Americans. TFD (talk) 10:57, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I am not sure this is a real challenge. A real challenge is to present a balanced view on what mainstream sources say.

With regard to the section's subject, I believe the need of the discussion of demography is dictated by the scale of mass killing: if so many people were killed, a reader may want to know what demographic consequences did that have on the countries? IMO, the question is quite reasonable.--Paul Siebert (talk) 12:58, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. The article is about killings under the aegis of communist regimes, as defined by what the regime calls itself. The fact is that the desire to deny such killings took place, that the killings were "acts of nature and not exacerbated by communist governments", that "famines are not related to acts of any government", that Pol Pot was "not really a communist at all", or that the regimes were "not really communist, even though that is what they called themselves" is "original research" when used to dispute what "reliable sources" state. Using that form of argumentation may be fun, but it is not what WP:CONSENSUS in the past has clearly decided. And that is why the article had been protected -- the major changes recently made here are contrary to the stated policies of Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 14:16, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am a little bit puzzled with this your comment. Do I undersdtand you correct demographic consequences of genocide or mass killing (in general) are irrelevant to the articles that discuss these events? If many people were killed, that is supposed to have some long lasting effect on the affected population. I think crimes of murderous regimes may become more evident if we demonstrate all consequences of these crimes (including demography changes).

In addition, your definition of the article's subject seems interesting. We may accept it, although it would be good if you provide the source demonstrating this topic in that way really exists. I think we need a separate section about that. I have some sources that discuss this idea, they may be useful.

I see one difficulty with your definition of the topic: North Korea is not Communist, according to your definition: there is no mention of Communism or Marxism is party's program, and they do not use the word "Communism" at all since early 60s, when Kim eradicated all "Soviet Koreans" in Korean leadershop and declared jucje. --Paul Siebert (talk) 15:16, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This section is about a recent revert made by Collect. Since he didn't explain his revert on the talk page, I took a liberty to start a separate section about that. The Vanamonde's post is a comment on this revert [39]--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You've cited BRD and reverted CJG. But he has actually produced reliable sources to support his position; so accusations of original research are completely off the mark. Per WP:DUE, we can only exclude those sources if they represent fringe viewpoints, or if they're being misrepresented, and at the moment you haven't produced evidence of either. Vanamonde (talk) 14:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The requirement for WP:CONSENSUS is discussion of such added claims. That means that a request for comment is in order - nothing more nor less. It is not my responsibility to do anything more than point his out - as is required by Wikipedia. Collect (talk) 14:47, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with removal by Collect [40]. A lot of materials are undue or do not belong to specific pages, no matter how reliably sourced. I do not think that opinions by revisionist historians, such ac Arch Getty, should be cited a lot on this page. Also an opinion that "Lenin never advocated for the physical extermination of the entire bourgeoise as a class" is highly questionable and hardly belongs here, etc. Overall, these recent edits make an impression of whitewashing communist crimes. My very best wishes (talk) 15:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus for changes to article content: therefore "consensus is required" is a valid reason to revert a bold change. But consensus can change: therefore "consensus is required" is a completely invalid argument in such a discussion. You've reverted Griffin's bold changes. The reason to make those changes has been presented here; the sources are reliable scholarly sources, and per WP:DUE they need to be included. You (Collect) have provided no argument in rebuttal.

I would agree that material about Lenin's intentions isn't relevant, because so far as I can see we're not arguing that he did exterminate the bourgeoisie. But material discussing whether the Soviet famines were intentional and/or qualify as genocide is very relevant here. Vanamonde (talk) 16:17, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think Collect was absolutely right when he reverted this change. However, that requires joining a discussion on the talk page that may follow. If no reasonable arguments, supported by reliable sources, will be presented by him, his further resistance to addition of this text will be absolutely incorrect.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, just saying "BRD" is not a valid justification for revert, but Collect did explain his revert just above. Main question here is how much space we can devote to every controversy related to communist murders - they suppose to be very brief summaries. For example, does the claims by historian Timothy D. Snyder really adds something on the number of victims? Would adding citations of Stephen G. Wheatcroft in several places be appropriate? Yes, maybe including just one phrase "Other scholars, such as ..." would be OK. My very best wishes (talk) 16:33, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If the goal of this article just to provide a number of people who died prematurely in Communist states, the title has to be changed accordingly. However, if the goal is to give a broad historical perspective, then Snyder is absolutely relevant. BTW, Courtois wrote the introduction with the only goal: to demonstrate Communism was worse than Nazism.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you believe the article's version that has been fully protected during last 6+ years due to an incessant edit war is a stable version? Do you believe our policy about consensus may apply to it, so this content should be restored if no consensus is achieved about its change? I think we need to know what TFD, My very best wishes, Collect , Miacek, C.J. Griffin, talk, Vanamonde, schetm, Galobtter  and others think about that. 

• No I believe the article was a battlefield, it was protected just to prevent an edit war, the admin did not endorse this particular version, so this content is NOT a consensus version. Any part of the content of this article that causes a justified criticism (a criticism supported by reliable sources) can and should be removed, and WP:BURDEN rests with those who restores it.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:16, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. What incessant edit war? Looking at the last series of edits on the page (was it 2011?), they appear to me as constructive work to improve this page: [41]. Yes, of course that was a stable version, and any new edits require WP:Consensus. And even if it was not a "stable version", a collaborative editing would still require WP:Consensus. It does not mean that the page can not be improved. Please make such changes that do not cause anyone's objections. This is possible and even very easy. My very best wishes (talk) 15:27, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• No per Paul Siebert. The article suffers from serious omissions from dissenting scholars on the subject of political repression under certain Communist regimes (and are being branded "revisionists" and unreliable sources by those here who wish to maintain the "consensus" version) and unbelievable bias. As it stands now it is propaganda, not history. Scholarship on the subject of the article is very thin at best, and the most commonly cited source for this, the BBoC, is itself a subject of controversy.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I added some materials from reliable sources, among them notable scholars of Soviet history including Stephen Wheatcroft, J. Arch Getty, Timothy Snyder and Mark Tauger, but these were reverted by User:Collect as "major changes that need consensus". I see nothing wrong with these additions given they are sourced and clearly on topic, but I can see why some might as it interrupts the systemic bias this article suffers from. My additions added prominent voices to these debates, and it seems to me that some wish to maintain the status quo of this article which suffers from some serious omissions, factual accuracy disputes and neutrality issues. When you only select sources that fit a certain narrative while omitting and essentially banning a whole host of other reliable sources on the same subject which reach different conclusions you no longer have an article that is based on serious historical research, but one that serves as propaganda. Perhaps it is time to revisit deleting this article?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:22, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You can certainly put it up for AfD once more -- I think it has set a record. I suggest you also seek deletion of "Anti-communist mass killings inter alia. The fact is that this topic has been repeatedly kept, and I have sought to have it be neutrally presented, but find that WP:CONSENSUS is what Wikipedia requires for all articles. Collect (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

C.J. Griffin, whereas I agree with you, I propose to postpone all work on this article unless we make a strategic decision about its context as a result of the above poll. Otherwise, that is a waste of time.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cite error: There are <ref group=nb> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=nb}} template (see the help page).