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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 66.177.244.25 (talk) at 02:49, 5 March 2015 (→‎Proper title). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedy deleted as being recently created, having no relevant page history and duplicating an existing English Wikipedia topic, because...the death of the Nemtsov is a major event comparable to death of Anna Politkovskaya -- Yablochko (talk) 23:26, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure this article is necessary. Seems the info could fit on the parent Boris Nemtsov article... ---Another Believer (Talk) 06:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Move to include it in the Boris Nemtsov article Santamoly (talk) 10:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are (were) two people who could plausibly be described as "Opposition Leader" in Russia, one is Aleksei Navalny, a nationalist, and the other was Boris Nemtsov, a liberal. I appreciate the Russian opposition is marginalised, but the assassination of one of its leaders has still (understandably) rocked the country, and will be a point of reference. Also this page has been linked to from the Main Page. I vote Keep. -- Yablochko (talk) 20:04, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Rocked the country? Are you even serious? The western media appear to be far more interested in this man than russians. He did not have any prominence on the political scene for at least 10 years. Five, ten, or even twenty thousand followers is nothing when we're talking about Russia.89.233.128.158 (talk) 09:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC).[reply]
Keep it..no one in their right mind would consider otherwise unless they had an ulterior motive.66.177.244.25 (talk) 20:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tasteless image

I know Wikipedia isn't censored, but the image shows the deceased partially undressed. It would be unencyclopedic to include graphic crime scene photos.– Gilliam (talk) 01:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That image appears not to have been uploaded with the proper copyright info. I suspect it won't be in the article long if the copyright is not remedied. N2e (talk) 02:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
 Done -- removed. TNKS, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 11:34, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Washing down the crime scene (literally)

Ukrainian journalist Olga Takariuk has tweeted a photo of the Russian autorities rather quickly hosing down the crime scene. It is going viral on twitter right now. Unbelievable: scene of #Nemtsov murder is being washed. Kinda shows how serious investigation gonna be

Nothing to see here, move along. N2e (talk) 02:03, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and would someone say, "At this point, what difference does it make?" ... I hope not. -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 11:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Which bridge?

Inital reports had it that Nemtsov died on Bolshoy Moskvoretsky Bridge, while later edits here and on Boris Nemtsov page had Bolshoy Kamenny Bridge. BStarky (talk) 03:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And the Russian-language Wikipedia article is certain it was on Bolshoy Moskvoretsky Bridge. BStarky (talk) 03:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's a video from the scene where spokeswoman of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs says it's Kamenny bridge: link (12:11) Template:Ru icon. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 04:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Another reference

Wall Street Journal has an article, but you need to log in to read it all. It begins, "MOSCOW—Russian opposition leader Boris Nemtsov was gunned down on a bridge next to the Kremlin late on Friday, in what authorities said appeared to be a contract killing."[1] -- Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 11:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Title -- killing vs. murder vs. assassination

What is best suited in title: Killing, Murder, Assassination or Death? Please discuss here. -Nizil (talk) 20:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The word "death" is too vague, because that could describe virtually any death, e.g. by accident, natural causes, etc. "Killing," too, is overbroad, because it could describe an accidental incident, e.g. a careless driver who accidentally runs someone down. Nemtsov was clearly murdered; he was shot multiple times by a gunman in a classic drive-by shooting. There's no way that could be accidental. Even if the gunmen intended to shoot someone else (albeit a highly unlikely scenario), killing the wrong person is still murder because the act is intentional. As to whether this is "murder" or "assassination" is a matter of semantics. If politically motivated in any capacity, then one would argue this was an assassination. A number of media sources, including the New York Times, are calling the act an assassination in headlines and article ledes.[2][3]Siberian Husky (talk) 15:44, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
For me this is a question of specificity, and I think we should be as specific as we can. A killing is a death with an active agent, a murder is a deliberate killing, and an assassination is a particular type of murder, defined on Wikipedia as "the deliberate killing of a prominent person or political figure, usually for payment or political reasons". Nemtsov's death was certainly deliberate, and probably political, so the question is whether or not being an opposition leader makes him sufficiently "prominent" to fit the criteria of assassination. One possible precedent is Kazem Rajavi, a senior Iranian oppositionist killed in 1990, and the Wikipedia page about him refers to that death as an assassination. On that basis I'm inclined to go with "assassination". -- Yablochko (talk) 19:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I notice now that the front page of Wikipedia says "Russian opposition politician Boris Nemtsov (pictured) is assassinated in Moscow" under the "In the news" section.Siberian Husky (talk) 21:03, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
While his death bears the hallmarks of assassination and is, on the balance of probability, linked (directly or otherwise) to Vladimir Putin, almost all of the sources use the term murder. As far as I can see no RS are using the term 'assassination' yet. Therefore, by our own policies, we are obliged to use the term murder until we have RS to indicate otherwise. Bellerophon talk to me 15:10, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Bellerophon: I do not suggest that Putin ordered the killing. What I do suggest is that, even if the perpetrator was a lone wolf, the killing was obviously for political reasons (i.e. an assassination). After all, the Beauchamp–Sharp Tragedy -an honour killing, at least as far as the accepted version is concerned- belongs both in Category:Honor killing and in Category:Assassinations in the United States, because there are chances that it was politically motivated. And, honestly, these chances are far less in that case than in our case, here.--The Theosophist (talk) 11:41, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I prefer killing, to which I originally moved the title, because "murder" is a legal term (a crime that must be proven, one which involves malice of forethought, etc.) and "assassination" seems likely but is also something that requires proof. My suggestion is made without prejudice to a future move pending the outcome of an inquest and possible court case (not that I'm holding my breath). I would prefer "assassination" to "murder", if there is not sufficient support for "killing". -Kudzu1 (talk) 04:13, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The crime is self-evident. So this is at least "murder". My very best wishes (talk) 04:30, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This was obviously a murder...assination is murder by definition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.244.25 (talk) 13:39, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So Putin must have had him shot?

"Any propaganda is unacceptable. West or East. It is essential to present neutral, unbiased facts and have as little emotion as possible. If there is no choice but to present propaganda sources, opposite side must be represented as well."

“The killing happened the day before the opposition march Vesna (Russian for “spring"), a street demonstration organized to protest against economic conditions in Russia and the war in Ukraine.”

“Media reports suggested Nemtsov had told friends he felt he was in danger of being killed by Putin due to his opposition to Putin's policy of supporting the pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.”

Honestly, this anti-Russian POV pushing reads more like a (poor) cold war novel. Should not any such (sub-007) BS be deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.217.152 (talk) 22:41, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that the last unpublished (almost finished) book by Nemtsov was about involvement of Putin at the war in Ukraine. The book and computer copies appear to be confiscated by the FSB from his apartment, and the apartment locked down (even his relatives are not allowed to enter). But this should be checked more carefully per sources. My very best wishes (talk) 03:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Claims of POV on this are very weak, at best, and only for the second item. The first statement is a fact. It happened the day before the march. Stating that fact is not biased. The second one needs to be sourced, but if sourced, is not POV. It could be better phrased, however, as "media reports suggested Nemtsov had told friends" is unduly vague. The article also includes statements from Putin elsewhere, etc., so multiple sides are presented.Siberian Husky (talk) 15:43, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are many reliably sourced claims about this, for example by brother of Boris Nemtsov. He said that it was obviously Putin who ordered this murder. He also explains 3 reasons why Putin had to do it [4]. Perhaps this should be included in the page. Moreover, Dmitry Peskov officially disproved such claims by telling that Nemtsov was not a threat for the Kremlin. In response, Stanislav Belkovsky commented: "did he [Peskov] mean that any politician who would be a threat will be killed?" - I am giving this link, but this has been published in a lot of sources. My very best wishes (talk) 06:32, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You actually might want to check older mutual "compliments" of Nemtsov and Putin. The one always threatened to overthrow the other, and the second one always blamed Russia's 90s crisis on the then-government and Nemtsov in particular. We have been hearing "Putin killed this and that and that and that one, too..." from Nemtsov for over a decade now. Moreover, at some point about 7 years ago Putin even stopped reacting to that nonsence. This last statement of Nemtsov, whenever it may have been made, is nothing special and is completely in line of his regular agenda, and does not deserve special highlighting.89.233.128.158 (talk) 09:55, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's really sad to realize that Wikipedia turned to another american/western propaganda tool(( The article is such POVed and engaged.

Would you prefer if it became a propaganda tool for the Russian government? The motive is obvious, and the subject of the discussion should be included. 79.184.166.86 (talk) 12:41, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Of course, informally speaking, there is no doubts who did it. The site of murder was under constant surveillance by the FSO (and Nemtsov himself was under surveillance). But yes, that must be reliably sourced per WP policies. My very best wishes (talk) 14:50, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly because "there's no doubts who did it" (particularly for the socalled "liberal world"), it is most likely that they did not do it, and this position, even if it turns out to be true, at this point is extremely biased. Nemtsov was a nobody of about the same value as, say, Kudrin or Khakamada on Russian political arena. He definitely had some sympathizers in quantities significant for a youtube channel or a blog, but not for a country. And having that as a background, he is known for a long list of his controversial second-level political and business activities, and for even longer list of rumored ones. There's plethora of people who did not wish him well, if you dig a little deeper.89.233.128.158 (talk) 06:53, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that is what his brother tells. And this has been published in a lot of sources [5]. The video cameras were turned off by authorities [6] and so on. Even without any evidence, as in any crime, there are several standard questions, such as (a) who had a motif, (b) who had technical capabilities to accomplish that particular crime right near the Kremlin. According to experts, this could not be done even by highly trained GRU operatives if they acted without support from other Russian special services (here is ref). This has been discussed in multiple RS and should be reflected in this page. My very best wishes (talk) 16:22, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Using Svoboda as a source? Might as well cite Mein Kampf. Anyway, it is evident that those responsible must be either Ukrainian fascists or Western intelligence agencies. Putin had no motive, in fact, this event only worsens his position. Meanwhile, the West and their Ukrainian collaborators did have quite a bit to gain: more propaganda material and possibly more destabilization. Always ask, cui bono? Who benefits? And that is clearly not Putin, only the West benefits. —Славянский патриот (talk) 04:39, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, even Andrey Illarionov, a former adviser of Putin, tells about "exceptional efforts" by the Russian authorities to hide the murderers in an avalanche of governmental disinformation [7], and this is telling. My very best wishes (talk) 14:53, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From The Story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears "Someone's been sleeping in my bed," Xx234 (talk) 11:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the paragraph "Investigation" appears the sentence Independent sources have dismissed such speculations by referring to them as "conspiracy theories". This tidbit refers to a single Daily Beast article itself (cleanly) referring to a site "The Interpreter" run by an Institute of Modern Russia. This organ describes itself ([8]) as a "non-partisan" US think tank headed by Mikhail Khodorkovsky's son Pavel. I think, and at least one other person [9] too, that this is not an independent source. Also, in any case where it was not a lone wolf assassin who did it, it logically needs to be a criminal conspiracy. Cui bono? 83.101.67.8 (talk) 20:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for

55.750114 37.624131 or 55 44' 00 37 37' 26

—91.146.33.143 (talk) 23:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Closing this request, since you've already made the change yourself. Deor (talk) 11:25, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Video

The murder has been video recorded, although from a significant distance. It was shown at Russian TV. [10], [11]. At the video one can see a slow-moving snow machine that almost covers Nemtsov and his women friend from the video camera. At this very moment, the killer comes on foot to them from a side, and shoots Nemtsov several times from behind. Four bullets hit him to head, heart (precisely), liver and stomach. Then a white car appears and picks up the killer. Although not claimed in the sources, it appears that snow machine might also be somehow involved. My very best wishes (talk) 03:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Russian crime investigators speculate

Seems POV.Xx234 (talk) 14:23, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Was it in Morse code?

"he President, Vladimir Putin, telegrammed Nemstov's 86-year-old mother" - I'm assuming "telegrammed" is supposed to mean something else than it appears to mean here? Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:14, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"sent a telegram to...", presumably. I presume he used the Central Telegraph service. RGloucester — ☎ 04:20, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:48, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proper title

This was not a "murder". It wasn't a street robbery gone wrong, or an attempted rape, or a crazed drug fiend. It was an "assassination", the professional killing of a high profile politician. The killer tailed Nemtsov, shot him repeatedly, left the girlfriend completely unharmed, and then jumped in a waiting get away car. It was planned well enough that the perpetrators were not caught, even though they were right beneath the Kremlin walls, one of the most highly surveillanced places on earth. There is no evidence whatsoever that this killing was anything other than a deliberate political hit. I suggest that the article be moved accordingly, and if some surprising proof comes out that this was not an assassination, we can always fix it later. Wikipedia doesn't wait for 100% proof. The 1% doubt that this might not have been a professional hit shouldn't justify the use of weasel words. Jehochman Talk 14:27, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Even more tellingly, at the time of his assassination that location had its surveillance turned off for maintenance, according to the Telegraph which describes it as 'what appears to have been a highly professional assassination'. We may need more than one source calling it an assassination to justify the move though. I expect such sources to appear in the coming days. Lklundin (talk) 14:47, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, this is obviously a political assassination, even if the assasins are unknown. My very best wishes (talk) 14:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not less so if the assassins remain unknown, as per Assassination of Olof Palme. In fact, I suspect that in this case they will remain unknown. Unless someone decides to send the message 'I kill with impunity'. Lklundin (talk) 15:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I already have a list of sources for "assassination". [12][13][14][15] There was a snow removal truck perfectly positioned to aid in the hit, and it drove away after Nemtsov fell. [16] This killing was highly professional. Jehochman Talk 15:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem to fit the standard definition of an assassination, as well as comport with general article naming standards in Wikipedia for articles that start with "Assassination of ..." N2e (talk) 15:39, 4 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with this move and believe it should be reverted, per the repeated remarks from WP:ITN/C. The overriding principle is WP:COMMONNAME, we use what the rest of the world uses for something as established as this rather than debate about the meaning ourselves. (To the extent that we want to anyway, I am baffled that "murder" somehow connotates "random maniac," or takes away from the severity of the incident. It's correct to say that Lincoln or Archduke Ferdinand were murdered, too.) Jehochman moved it "per the sources", but this doesn't appear to be actually correct. To be sure, there are plenty of sources calling it an assassination; there simply appear to be far more sources calling it a murder. Google News search on "Nemtsov" comes up with 9 references to "Murder", 5 references to "Killing", and 2 references to "assassination" via CTRL-F. Vanilla Google Search for "Nemtsov murder" yields 1,650,000 results; the same for "Nemtsov assassination" yields a mere 144,000 results. Vanilla Google search should be taken with a grain of salt as there are probably incidental uses of that phrase seeping in from before his death, but it's still a pretty huge margin.

There also appear to be vague hints that using "murder" somehow plays down the severity of the incident or is related to Putin-apologetica. That isn't true at all; there are plenty of articles hostile to Putin that still use "murder" (e.g. Secretary of State Kerry, which isn't surprising as murder is about as horrible as crimes go! So, buh.

Anyone else want to chime in? I'd like to revert the move, but am open to counterarguments... SnowFire (talk) 00:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

not sure which way you are going here..seems justified to call it an assassination to me...sure hope I don`t end up on a KGB hit list for saying it though. 66.177.244.25 (talk) 02:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kremlin-appointed?

Since it's a functional government, it's seems obvious it isn't Washington-appointed investigation. It should be noted that Vladimir Putin prioritized the investigation because of possible outside influence. Any matters of national security should be prioritized. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.240.247.8 (talk) 01:36, 5 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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