Talk:Count Nikolai of Monpezat

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This article was nominated for deletion on 17 August 2005. The result of the discussion was keep.

For a August 2005 deletion debate see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Prince Nikolai of Denmark — Preceding unsigned comment added by NSR (talk • contribs) 06:27, 24 August 2005‎ (UTC)[reply]

No, this article should not be deleted at all. Prince Nikolai happens to be the first grandchild of Queen Margrethe II and her husband, Prince Henrik. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.208.59.220 (talk • contribs) 07:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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I think this article should use a more recent photo, such as one of those released by the court for HH's 18th birthday last summer. But I don't know how to do that. Can someone else change the picture? These are the photos one of which I would like to see used: http://kongehuset.dk/foto-video/hh-prins-nikolai-18-aar

Royalcello (talk) 16:50, 10 February 2018 (UTC)royalcello[reply]

I found quite a few Danish articles stating that the parents have joint custody, but I think the most important source is the one I added from the Danish Royal court website. It clearly states the fact. I think this now resolves the issue of citations on the page and perhaps the notice at the top can be removed. I will leave that to others to decide. Geekyroyalaficionado (talk) 12:08, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some more recent pictures of Prince Nikolai here: https://www.instagram.com/p/B1seyiWgMu_/. Would these be usable in the article? 2angelgoats (talk) 17:10, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone tell me how to add a photo H.K.H45 (talk) 13:15, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The request to rename this article to Count Nikolai of Monpezat has been carried out. If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

• Nikolai, Count of Monpezat → Count Nikolai of Monpezat
• Felix, Count of Monpezat → Count Felix of Monpezat
• Henrik, Count of Monpezat → Count Henrik of Monpezat
• Athena, Countess of Monpezat → Countess Athena of Monpezat

– See arguments below. Elme12 (talk) 23:36, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems reasonable to assume, looking at the cited source, i.e. the Danish Royal Court's announcement, that the name format for this article, and the three articles of his brothers and sister should be the same as what we're using for his grandmother's cousin Count Ingolf of Rosenborg. That name format leaves others free to call him either Count Rosenborg (formally correct for a count of nobility, i.e. a non-royal count) or Count Ingolf (less correct but flattering). Thoughts? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong support I am absolutely in favor of moving to “Count Nikolai of Monpezat”, that is in accordance with other counts of European royal families (see Countess Eloise of Orange-Nassau, Count Claus-Casimir of Orange-Nassau and Countess Leonore of Orange-Nassau) and it also seems to be the official format followed by the Danish royal house. Furthermore the current format suggests that they hold a substantive title, which is not the case. When a title is unique and not shared, the style is usually “X, Count of Y”, whilst “Count X of Y”, indicates that it is a non-substantive title that is shared, which is the case here. I have requested the move of the 4 articles. Elme12 (talk) 23:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support as typically the X, Title of Y is used for peers or nobles who hold substantive titles, whereas Nikolai and his siblings hold the title by courtesy. As already mentioned, the move would put them in line with the children of Dutch royals who hold comital titles, and with their own kin who are Counts of Rosenborg. Piratesswoop (talk) 02:23, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. These are courtesy titles held by cadets not substantive titles. DrKay (talk) 08:28, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I agree. It seems reasonable. Sirslayercort (talk) 09:17, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. As stated above, they do not hold a substantive title (in which there would be only one "The Count of Monpezat" and the format “X, Count of Y” is applicable), but this is instead a nobility title held by all who are entitled to it. In this case, the format "Count X of Y" is the appropriate one. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 12:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am neutral in this discussion, as far as Count Nikolai's Wikipedia entry is concerned.

However, I'd point out that the concept of a "substantive title" is an arbitrary term, with no actual dictionary definition. It would likely violate Wikipedia's principle of 'no original research' for Wikipedia itself to erect a definition for 'substantive title'.

According to the Wikipedia Talk Page for the entry 'Substantive Title', one possible definition seems to a be a title that is unique, and held by only one individual at a time, as opposed to multiple holders at the same time. According to that definition, 'Count of Monpezat' is a non-substantive title, since it is held by multiple members of the family. But another possible definition of 'substantive title' states that it is a title with a basis in the law ( as opposed to a 'courtesy title', which is defined as one with a basis in traditional or customnary usage, rather than law). Under that definition, 'Count of Monpezat' could be a substantive title, as it was conferred by the Queen of Denmark as an hereditary title for her descendants, and is apparently recognised as such in Danish law. Windemere2 (talk) 10:43, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Whether the definition of “substantive title” is well established or not, there is a difference in Wikipedia page titles between individual titles and shared titles as shown by the mentioned precedents. Leonor, Princess of Asturias holds a substantive (or unique) title, whilst Prince Joachim of Denmark doesn’t (he would otherwise be styled as “Joachim, Prince of Denmark”). I could find no exception to that unwritten convention on Wikipedia. That’s also the rule that seems to be followed by the Almanach de Gotha. Elme12 (talk) 11:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

'Leonor, Princess of Asturias' is a unique title for herself alone, and is evidently recognised as so in Spanish law as well. So she can be considered to hold a substantive title.

Kongehuset.dk, the official website of the Danish royal family, uses both 'Prince Joachim' (under his photo) and 'Joachim, Prince of Denmark, Count of Monpezat' (in his narrative biography). The website also refers to 'Count Nikolai' under his (Nikolai's) photo, but 'Nikolai.....Count of Monpezat' in his (Nikolai's) narrative biography. It would seem, therefore, that a case could also be made that these are substantive titles, though that might be questionable. It depends upon interpretation of the term 'substantive title'.

There doesn't seem to be a clear definition of what constitutes a 'substantive title', and so it might be best to refrain from using that term. However, it might be reasonable to change Nikolai's entry on Wikipedia to 'Count Nikolai of Monpezat' based upon it's being a shared title rather than an individual title, and use 'unique (individual) title' compared to 'shared title' as the Wikipedia standard for such entries. Windemere2 (talk) 16:18, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I agree with most of the arguments made here, but I think I should also point out how the children have been referred to on the official website. For example, the entry for Nikolai reads HE Nikolai William Alexander Frederik Count of Monpezat, is the son of HRH Prince Joachim and HE Alexandra Countess of Frederiksborg. This is similar to the entries on Felix, Henrik, and Athena, where the title follows the name. The same format appears to have been used for the Danish versions as well (1, 2, 3, 4). While this may not necessarily be the correct form of address, it is how the royal household has chosen to refer to them, and on Wikipedia we tend to follow what the sources, even if they occasionally go against the convention (The most recent example being the debate about using either Camilla, Queen Consort or Queen Camilla as a page title). If there are secondary sources that follow the format Count/ess X of Y when referring to these children or if there are instances in which the suggested format has been used on the official website as well, then there would be a strong case for this move. Keivan.f^Talk 21:14, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the move the page as it is now fits with what the royal house of denmark has on there offical page about HE and his siblings H.K.H45 (talk) 11:04, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone add to this article a (legal) source underpinning the decision of H.M. the Queen to take away original names and titles of count Nikolai and siblings? Nowhere I could find such a source. I have serious doubt if the Queen had the right to unilaterally take away from her (adult) grandchildren name and identity that they had borne since their birth. There certainly is no ground in the Constitution of Denmark. The right to name and identity is protected by international law. There must be a specific and binding law that has been applied. The Court has claimed that similar changes of name and identity happened in other monarchies, notably the United Kingdom and the Netherlands. In the UK not even princess Diana (after the divorce) and prince Andrew (prince since his birth) were stripped of their princely titles. In the Netherlands not one member of the royal family has ever been stripped from a name and title given by birth. Stating the contrary is untrue. I would very much appreciate a reference to a legal source which justities the Queen’s action. Best regards, Guust Guust van Bisselt (talk) 07:20, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are right they are still legal prince and princess to denmark as they are in line to the throne they have been asked not to use them that is want prince Nikolai meant when he said in his statement that he will be proud of the years he was ALLOWED to use the title they still retain them H.K.H45 (talk) 11:52, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]