User talk:Salakku

Hey, please be very careful when adding IPA for Dutch if you are unfamiliar with the language. The pronunciations you added thus far are both erroneous, see diffs for corrections: provocatief, representatie.

Also re: this diff on adres - if you're not sure, feel free to ask others (WT:Etymology scriptorium), but do not remove correct information merely because you yourself do not know how to verify it. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 10:00, 12 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, next time I will be more careful when editing or creating Dutch entries. Also, I have a question, how can I predict the length of the vowels in Dutch words? Salakku (talk) 10:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Arguably the most important factor in determining vowel length based on spelling in Dutch is whether the syllable is open or closed and how the vowel is spelled (doubled or single).

Generally speaking a long vowel in a closed syllable will be written doubled (aa, ee, oo etc.), whereas it will be written singly (a, e, o etc.) in an open syllable. Short vowels are typically found only in closed syllables and are never written doubled.

Thus contrast the long vowels in naam, boom, heel (closed syllables), maker and molen (long vowels in open first syllables) with nam, bom, hel, makker and mollen (all short vowels).

Returning to the examples I corrected in my initial comment above, you can see that your mistakes consisted of erroneously marking long vowels as short, which could be avoided by noticing that many of the vowels were in open syllables.

Of course this is a very rough summary; there is more nuance than this and there are of course always exceptions. The following pages may be of interest:

• Dutch orthography
• Dutch phonology

Google will also yield some more basic explanations if you look for information regarding Dutch spelling and vowels in open and closed syllables, e.g. this page. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I see you recently have been making rhyme categories for Indonesian. A lot of them seem to be erroneous, as they start with a consonant. Rhyme categories should start with a vowel. Furthermore, they don't always align with the given IPA transcription, as the rhyme should start from the stressed syllable. For example, you made Category:Rhymes:Indonesian/mə, but the stress is always on the syllable before. Stujul (talk) 15:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

After looking a bit more into it, it seems this is already common practice for Indonesian rhyme categories. I'm not familiar with Indonesian pronunciation and such, but it does seem weird that it's inconsistent with other languages. Maybe you could shed some light on this?

Stujul (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think the categorization of rhyme in Indonesian words is done like that because we don't understand how to do it properly.
Also, thank you for letting me know this! Next time, I will try to make Indonesian rhymes consistent with other languages. Salakku (talk) 20:23, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Salakku I can see the logic behind your edit here, but I believe it is more the case that Malay simply borrowed suffixes like "-si" and "-asi" from Indonesian and used them to adapt English words ending in their English counterparts "-tion" and "-ation" instead of Malay borrowing words like "edisi" and "imaginasi" directly from Indonesian.

This explains certain spelling differences in words of these kinds such as Malay "imaginasi" being spelt differently from Indonesian "imajinasi", and also how there are various words ending in those suffixes that have their older forms with "-syen" and "-esyen" or "-esen" found in other contexts such as "sesyen" which has now been replaced by "sesi" but has been fossilized in the Malay equivalent of a "sessions court" which is a "mahkamah sesyen" in Malay.

Because of this, I believe it is more appropriate to list those Malay words ending in the Indonesian-derived "-si" and "-asi" suffixes as having been borrowed from English instead.

@Austronesier, if possible, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. GinormousBuildings (talk) 18:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

I see, but what about the word hipertensi? Do you also think it would be more appropriate if its etymology said that the word is borrowed from English? I mean if the word is indeed borrowed from that language, but with the suffix adjusted, it should be haipertensi, which is more based on the English pronunciation hypertension. Salakku (talk) 22:25, 31 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Salakku I would say yes because, although that prefix is spelt as “hiper-“ in Malay as codified through the efforts of MABBIM, it is still pronounced as “haiper-“ in Malaysia as seen in the videos below:

https://youtu.be/oTKJwDtSTHY?si=gNdrQomgpk9EmpNA

https://youtu.be/M0E74QtkqzE?si=XYFS7RWFn56cJ8ZD

--GinormousBuildings (talk) 09:44, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Is there an old spelling of hipertensi? Or did they not use that word in the past, but used the unadapted borrowing hypertension instead? Salakku (talk) 20:35, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm not aware of that. The 1936 Buku Katan Kamus Melayu has words like ايديوکيشن (édikésyen) and ايليکتريسيتي (éléktrisiti) according to its overview on the site I linked, which suggests that there have already been Malay approximations of several scientific terms including words like hypertension but I don't have access to it, so I cannot confirm whether that is true or not.

With all that in mind, it seems there are two groups for words like edisi and indeed hipertensi:

1. Scientific terms that had been adapted into Malay and then altered to make them more uniform with the Indonesian form of those words (e.g. sesyen and imigresen which got replaced by sesi and imigrasi, although the word imigrasi is rarely used in Malaysia). Words in this group are more fit to be said to have been borrowed from English.
2. Scientific terms that had never been adapted into Malay, and only did so after MBIM (later MABBIM) was formed and made Malay abandon its use of the English-derived -syen and -esen suffixes in favour of the Indonesian Dutch-derived -si and -asi suffixes. Words in this group are more fit to be said to have been borrowed by Malay from Indonesian. Also, if prefixes like hiper- and hipo- are only found in this group in words, then it could be said that Malay borrowed those prefixes from Indonesian, but Malay speakers were simply influenced by the pronunciation of those prefixes' English equivalents hyper- and hypo-.

With all that said, given that I do not know yet whether words like edisi and hipertensi fall into the first group of words that I mentioned due to my not having access to the above mentioned book or any other pre-1972 Malay book that does list those words, for now, I think it is more accurate to follow suit with your latest edits of those words as having been borrowed into Malay from Indonesian. GinormousBuildings (talk) 07:30, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Reply