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Talk:Stefan Molyneux

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No mention of atheism

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Jesus you are really covering up for the atheists 109.240.98.232 (talk) 12:47, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact he's an atheist would contradict the ludicrous cult narrative which the leftists and nihilists are pushing to slander him. 2A01:5A8:447:A861:917D:3E97:8AE8:72C (talk) 06:14, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Uh huh, "slander", sure. Regardless, without a reliable sources, who cares whether or not he's an atheist? If you have a reliable source for this, and that source indicates why it matters, feel free to propose it. Grayfell (talk) 06:19, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He actually wrote a book abouth atheism, and another about secular ethics, so atheism and secularism are important parts of his philosophy, so they should be mentionned. He also often refers to Ayn Rand as one of his early influences (he talks about her in his book The Art of The Argument).
https://www.amazon.ca/Against-Gods-Concise-Atheism-Agnosticism/dp/1975654382
https://www.amazon.ca/Universally-Preferable-Behaviour-Rational-Secular/dp/1975653742Hayden41 (talk) 17:08, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where is the reliable source about him being a White nationalist? Wikipedia is a hilarious echo chamber of people LARPing as neutral fact finders interested in the truth, who on the same hand will only use mainstream media as their sources. I bet not a single moderator who edited Stefan's page and who has the power now to actually make it neutral has listened to a single full podcast from Stefan. 70.48.250.13 (talk) 14:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 28 June 2024

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Put in somewhere “he appears on freedomainradio often with his daughter in a condescending demeanor to his call-in guests…”. And “he milks donations out of listeners and complains if his tips are of a dollar or less…” 2603:6011:4301:7094:2DBA:D539:24D:6936 (talk) 04:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

May well be OR and way to much editorialising. Slatersteven (talk) 10:02, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: unsourced, non-neutral Wracking talk! 15:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why no mention of his published books?

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Reardless of his controvertial opinions, Molyneux is a published author, so there should be a section about his books.

I don't have the necessary permissions to edit his page.

Essays

  • On Truth: The Tyranny Of Illusion (2007)
  • Universally Preferable Behaviour: A Rational Proof of Secular Ethics (2007)
  • Everyday Anarchy: The Freedom of Now (2008)
  • Practical Anarchy: The Freedom of the Future (2008)
  • Against The Gods (2010)
  • The Art of The Argument: Western Civilization's Last Stand (2017)
  • Real-Time Relationships: The Logic of Love (2017)
  • Essential Philosophy: How to know what on earth is going on (2018)

Novels

  • Revolutions (2002)
  • The God of Atheists (2007)

Hayden41 (talk) 16:46, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am open to correction on this but isn't CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform a self publishing platform?
Essential Philosophy: Everything You Need to Understand the World's Greatest Thinkers, comes back as the author James Mannion.
Maybe someone with more knowledge on this can weigh in. Knitsey (talk) 17:47, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I didn't have the required privileges to edit the page, but it turns out I can, so I added the section. Hayden41 (talk) 17:54, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This has come up multiple times in the past. See Talk:Stefan Molyneux/Archive 11#Publications section. Wikipedia isn't a platform for promotion, and reliable sources do not, in general treat him as being notable as a published author. For example, despite much effort, only one review of any of his work has been found which is even arguably reliable. Since it was arguable, it has already been removed.
Further, it appears the list you added includes multiple errors. ISBN 1598691384, which you cited for his 2018 book, shows up in Worldcat as the 2006 Mannion book. ISBN 1975654382 for Against the Gods is not in Worldcat at all (which demonstrates the obscurity of these self-published works) but it is listed by Google and Amazon as having been published in 2017, not 2010.
Instead of adding a bland and superficially flattering bibliography, if any of his work are discussed by reliable and independent sources, use those sources to explain why the work is significant in prose in the body. Since this has come up before, proposing those sources on talk is also a good idea. Grayfell (talk) 20:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since the article mostly talks about his philosophical and polticial views, wouldn't it be pertinent to post the work he has written himself at length on these subjects, instead of relying solely on second-hand opinions on what he is alledged to believe?
He has written books, that is a fact, so therefore he is an author, and people should be allowed to know what those books are. The entirety of the article about him is about what other people think of his views, never once is he allowed the courtesy of being provided a link or a mere referrence to his own published words. That is very weird.Hayden41 (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
People have a lot of traits, but we use independent sources to determine which traits are encyclopedically significant. Wikipedia isn't a platform for public relations, nor is it a place for fans to help him sell his wares (not even as a "courtesy" as you put it). Wikipedia strongly favors WP:SECONDARY sources. Further, WP:UGC (user-generated content) sites such as Goodreads are not reliable sources for Wikipedia.
Additionally, per MOS:SEEALSO: As a general rule, the "See also" section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body. (emphasis in original). Grayfell (talk) 19:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not a structure to be used to gang up on someone's reputation either, which is clearly what this page seems to be about.
As I said, this page almost entirely uses second-hand opinions of his words, but not a single time is it acknlowledged that he has written his own thoughts in book form. Why is that? Are other people's opinions the only thing that count as fact here?
Oddly enough, the only place where there is mention of one of his books is the "reception" section, which only talks about one reviewer, David Gordon, which is of course negative. Should I add a positive review of his books then, to make it seem that wikipedia at least tries to be fair and balanced? But I'm sure if I do it will promptly be erased for "promoting" his work.
If you're going to have a section about one reviewer, why not have a section about his bibliography? There seems to be an inconsistency here.
Yes, he is self-published, but there is a link to his website that he owns the rights to. If he owns and operates a website, then technically he's a publisher. Obviously his opinions have had an impact on others and culture, enough to justify having a wikipedia page of his own, so therefore what exactly he has written matters as a matter of record.
Molyneux has written books that people have read, he is a thinker and writer, that is not my opinion, it is a fact. You may not like his opinions, and I never said that I did, BTW, but it's what he does and what he is known for. The very reason why this page exists. It's not "public relations" or "promotion" to merely have a footnote mentioning that he has written books.
Any way, his bibliography is alot more relevant to the topic of "Stefan Molyneux" than his wife's name and occupation, which for some reason has been judged pertinent. 69.156.66.92 (talk) 21:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you about the "see also" section, I didn't know that. Hayden41 (talk) 22:05, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Encyclopedias are tertiary sources, so this article attempts to explain Stefan Molyneux as a topic from an outside perspective. This means we mainly summarize WP:SECONDARY sources (specifically independent sources).
Molyneux has his own platforms for describing himself and his own views. This article is not one of them. His self-published books are not any more or less important than his blog posts or podcasts or forums, or videos, or interviews, or whatever else might exist. To put it another way, Wikipedia should not be placed in the position that we are rewarding/punishing him for being prolific. That he has produced a lot of material is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, and further, it isn't even noteworthy at all unless a reliable source notes it for us.
As I've said multiple times on this talk page over the years, if you know of any reviews for any of this books that have been published as reliable sources, please propose them here. Admittedly, I haven't looked recently, but if there is any reason to think that more have appeared recently, let me know and I will look again. From what I have seen, almost nobody has paid any attention to these works. Why would these works be so inherently noteworthy that they do not need a reliable source despite Wikipedia's core policies and long-standing convention? Without context from a reliable source, their mere existence tells readers pretty much nothing about Molyneux as a topic.
So we need to provide at least some context, and the way to do that is via reliable sources. Grayfell (talk) 22:50, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At the very least there should be a mention that he is indeed an author, since you have a section about the reception of one of his books. You can't mention one book and not the others. You can't have it both ways.
Furthermore, his essays do inform us about his worldview, which might inform the reader on why he is so controvertial. It is mentioned in his bio that he is an anarcho-capitalist. Then why on Earth shouldn't it be mentioned that he has written two books on anarchism?
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, encyclopedias are disinterested, dispationnate, and unbiased sources of information. This is clearly not the case here. Every single opinion on this page is negative, every single link leads to a harsh critic. The page on Adolph Hitler shows more impartiality. Any page on any person should be an overview of who that person is, and a record what they have done. It should be more than a collection of negative and defamatory comments people have made about them, often with very little context (which could be provided by his writings). A person can't solely be summed up by the opinion of others. 69.156.66.92 (talk) 00:24, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, he has many traits. Being a self-published author isn't automatically vitally important just because you say it is. Our goal isn't to inform people of his "worldview" as a context-free set of factoids, it is to provide context, and as I said, that context must come from reliable, independent sources. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't at least some of his self-published books just compilations of his blog-posts and forum posts? These kinds of works would be unlikely to belong without context. Again, this is why we use reliable, independent sources to decide which works are important and which are not.
This approach extends to the rest of the article. The article attempts to dispassionately summarize source, but those sources are not required to be 'dispassionate' in the way your comment suggests. Likewise, we are not required to robotically ignore the context those sources provide. Grayfell (talk) 03:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Care to explain why you edited out the information I added?
There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for you to do so. Hayden41 (talk) 00:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Becasue of wp:not, it is not our job to act as a bibliography or catalog. I fail to see how this will help the reader. Slatersteven (talk) 09:52, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a "reception" section talking about one his books being reviewed, so therefore it is pertinent to mention that he is an author and self-published. You can't have it both ways, you can't mention he has a book out and not mention that he is an author. Hayden41 (talk) 00:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And I put back the reference to his presence on the Joe Rogan Experience, since he was indeed invited twice (episodes #436 and #538).
https://www.jrepodcast.com/guest/stefan-molyneux/
You have no legitimate reason to take it out. Hayden41 (talk) 00:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's even a third time (#396) Hayden41 (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just as he has produced many blog posts and similar, he's also appeared on many podcasts over the years. The site you've mentioned, jrepodcast.com, is an "unofficial fan site" and isn't even reliable at all. It is poor for both factual claims and also for demonstrating lasting encyclopedic significance. We still need reliable WP:IS to explain to readers why any particular appearance matters. The one book review by David Gordon (philosopher) has come and gone from the article a few times, but regardless, as an independent source it's still better than anything you have proposed. Grayfell (talk) 00:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the site I referenced you can view the actual podcast, you can see him being interviewed by Joe Rogan, what more proof does one need that he indeed was on the show?
Why are there mention that he was on those other platforms (RT, PressTV, Info Wars) pertinent, but for some reason one can't say he appeared on the Rogan Experience? What is the logic behind that choice?
I don't see any reliable sources that shows he was on PressTV. Hayden41 (talk) 01:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1aGslQJpQhdNBwLXSYqx6a
This is the actual Joe Rogan Experience Podcast, not a "fan site". Hayden41 (talk) 01:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rogan's podcast is not an independent source for these appearances. It is a primary source, and Wikipedia articles should mainly use secondary and independent to determine whether or not something is important enough to mention. This is especially true for the lead of the article. RT, Press TV, and InfoWars are all supported by a reliable, secondary source. That source doesn't mention Rogan. Grayfell (talk) 01:39, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Joe Rogan Experience is not a reliable source of what appeared on the Joe Rogan Experience?
Are you kidding me? Hayden41 (talk) 01:41, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno know, are you reading what I actually wrote? I said it's not an independent source for this. As I've said multiple times, we use sources which are both reliable and independent to determine which pieces of information belong in the article. The sources you have proposed do not explain why this information is significant. These books cannot independently explain themselves, nor can a podcast, nor can anything else. Grayfell (talk) 01:45, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No independent sources have been provided for his appearances on RT or PressTV. Hayden41 (talk) 02:02, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is wp:undue as this is just 4 appearances over a decades-long career, its not significant. Slatersteven (talk) 10:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And yes there is [[1]]. Slatersteven (talk) 11:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#unjustified removal of my edits on the Stefan Molyneux page and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks, Hayden41 (talk) 02:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#unjustified removal of my edits on the Stefan Molyneux page and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks, Hayden41 (talk) 02:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#unjustified removal of my edits on the Stefan Molyneux page and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks, Hayden41 (talk) 02:12, 10 August 2024 (UTC) Can we not discuss different issues in the same place, as it makes it difficult to follow? Slatersteven (talk) 10:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the Newsweek link I provided, it is clearly stated:
"But a slew of right-wing guests failed to make the cut during the move, including Gavin McInnes, Milo Yiannopoulus, Stefan Molyneux and earlier Jones interviews."
EARLIER INTERVIEWS. Which means he was invited at The Joe Rogan Experience before.
You sir are dishonest. Hayden41 (talk) 12:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What has this to do with asking users to keep discussions focused on single topics? Slatersteven (talk) 12:18, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about your latest removal of my edit.
I believe you are the one engaging in "edit war". Hayden41 (talk) 12:21, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y≥ou discuss user action as the appropriate notice boards (or the users talk pages), not on article talk pages, which are for discussion how to improve the article only. Slatersteven (talk) 12:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Stefan Molyneux on the Joe Rogan Experience

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I put a link to a Newsweek article which clearly states:

"But a slew of right-wing guests failed to make the cut during the move, including Gavin McInnes, Milo Yiannopoulus, Stefan Molyneux and earlier Jones interviews."

Which means he was on the Joe Rogan podcast, which should logically be included in his appearances along RT, PressTV and Infowars. Newsweek is a legitimate reliable source.

User Slatersteven keeps editing it out, which is edit warring. Hayden41 (talk) 12:25, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is wp:undue as your source does not even bother to say anything more than he did appear (well to be "fair" implies it, but let's be generous. Slatersteven (talk) 12:27, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm only asking for consistency.
There is no logical reason to not mention his presence on the podcast. Hayden41 (talk) 12:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So then maybe the others also fail undue and should be removed? Slatersteven (talk) 12:33, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tell me why RT or Press TV is mentioned and not the JRE.
What is the reason for this choice?
I provided a link to a reliable source.
Either his presence on podcasts are mentioned, or they aren't. You don't get to chose. Hayden41 (talk) 12:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea, I did not add them, and as I said I have no objection to removing them. Slatersteven (talk) 12:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then why didn't you?
You clearly chose to remove one, and not the others.
I want to know why? Hayden41 (talk) 12:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because Joe Rogan is a minor show, that is not even on a minor channel, whereas the others are not podcasts, they are TV shows. Thus it seems to be less due then those. And this will be my last comment on this for a while, as there are others here. Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Joe Rogan Experience is a minor show?
We clearly disagree. Someone else needs to weigh in on this, you are obviously biased and unfit to make such an edit. Hayden41 (talk) 12:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Joe Rogan Experience
"By 2015, it was one of the world's most popular podcasts, regularly receiving millions of views per episode"
"The Joe Rogan Experience would be available on Spotify in an exclusive licensing deal worth an estimated $200 million"
A minor show? Hayden41 (talk) 12:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The word " guests " is more than just "implying". He was on the show. Hayden41 (talk) 12:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Newsweek is not a generally reliable source. One throwaway mention in an non-reliable source isn't sufficient for inclusion. Cortador (talk) 21:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Note, silence is not acquiescence, unless I say yes assume silence means no. Slatersteven (talk) 12:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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