Wikipedia

Talk:Azov Brigade

Latest comment: 49 minutes ago by Genabab in topic NPOV


    Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 July 2024

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    Latest comment: 2 months ago5 comments3 people in discussion

    There's a random piece of orphan text in the middle of the list of references. Please either move it to wherever it may belong or remove it:

    According to Biletsky, the emblem that many consider to be the Nazi "wolf trap", "Idea of the Nation" – is the intersection of the letters of the Latin alphabet "and" and "N"</ref>

    . 76.14.122.5 (talk) 03:04, 4 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

    I can't find that text anywhere in the article. Could you be more precise? Sjö (talk) 06:05, 4 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    It's in the references section. You need to view in edit mode, not while reading the article 76.14.122.5 (talk) 17:12, 4 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

      Done I looked through the page history and couldn't figure out where that snippet was supposed to go, so deleted it. PianoDan (talk) 20:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Thanks! 76.14.122.5 (talk) 22:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Offtopic

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    Latest comment: 2 months ago5 comments2 people in discussion

    Greetings @Mhorg, what is the point in your edit [1] , which adds sources such as
    Olszański, Tadeusz A. (4 July 2011). "Svoboda Party – The New Phenomenon on the Ukrainian Right-Wing Scene". Centre for Eastern Studies. OSW Commentary (56): 6. Archived from the original on 13 March 2014. Retrieved 27 September 2013.
    , some website ("naso"), and so on? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

    It is the primary source, the website of Ukrainian National Union (political party), where you can see their logo with the Wolfsangel searching for the label "Збори Харківського обласного відділення Українського Національного Союзу". Of course it is better to find a secondary source. Mhorg (talk) 16:23, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    So, it's unrelated to the article. Can you please filter out and remove content and sources from your edit which are unrelated to this article. Thanks. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:33, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Thank you for removing this one. Why the article still references the work mentioned in the first message? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:44, 11 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'm going to remove sentences discussing symbolics of other groups, like "It was used by the Patriot of Ukraine organization" and so on, as not related to Azov. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
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    Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion

    The References link number 115, about Meta's Facebook and Instagram, seems to be linking to information about a Leopard Tank and nothing about Facebook. Looking at the history, soon after the news article was written, someone added the information in with a wrong link. I guess later, the archive link used the wrong link as well. Can someone please correct both links? The dates seem to be correct, 19 January 2023. The correct link seems to be this article. https://kyivindependent.com/meta-azov-regiment-no-longer-meets-criteria-for-dangerous-organization-on-facebook-instagram/ - cyalknight 174.21.101.22 (talk) 05:06, 19 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Biletsky said in 2010

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    Latest comment: 1 month ago29 comments4 people in discussion

    From the article: The founder of the battalion, Andriy Biletsky, said in 2010 that the Ukrainian nation's mission is to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen. But Ukraine's National Militia: 'We're not neo-Nazis, we just want to make our country better' | Ukraine | The Guardian Biletsky has toned down his rhetoric in recent years. Why to keep it at all? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:17, 20 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

    That sentence was a big scandal and is often quoted in first-class sources, a sign that it is an important passage. Mhorg (talk) 21:23, 20 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    is often quoted in first-class sources
    I haven't seen that. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Why would the historical rhetoric be undue? This is an article which cover's Azov's history and it received significant coverage in RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:46, 20 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Azov's, not Biletsky. I don't see the "significant coverage". The whole article is pushing "They are Neo-Nazis" too much, highlighting everything that has "Neo-Nazi" in their surrounding. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Biletsky... The founder of Azov? The Guardian article is significant coverage. Thats not an article about Biletsky, thats an article about Azov. If the RS highlight/push then so do we, thats how due weight works. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:22, 20 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The Guardian article is significant coverage
    No, it's called a single coverage :) ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:58, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Washington Post,[2] Al Jazeera,[3] CNN[4] and much more. Mhorg (talk) 16:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Let me repeat the original argument which has not been attended and which is - given Biletsky has toned down his rhetoric in recent years, why to keep it at all? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Biletsky was fundamental in the creation of the Azov. Mhorg (talk) 17:16, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If the argument above is not addressed, as well as The whole article is pushing "They are Neo-Nazis" too much, highlighting everything that has "Neo-Nazi" in their surrounding, those arguments remain. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    You have offered nothing which substantiates that argument, first you need to establish that it actually does that... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:43, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    You have offered nothing
    We did. See the article itself. Academic researchers argue that the regiment has changed since its integration into the National Guard, tempering far-right elements and distancing from the movement.[1][2] Alexander Ritzmann, a Senior Advisor to the Counter Extremism Project, wrote of the Azov Battalion: "when your country is under attack by foreign invaders, it is understandable that Ukrainians will not focus on the political views of their co-defenders, but on who can and will fight the invaders".[3] Researchers note that since its formation, Azov has been through general depolitization, acted "with considerably less neo-Nazism and extremism", "and included Muslims, Jews, and other minorities within its ranks".[4]
     ManyAreasExpert (talk) 17:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Who else is included in "we"? And none of that says that this article gives undue weight to their far right links. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:56, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    We the authors. Your argument posted above is answered.
    You have offered nothing which substantiates that argument ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:00, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Who are the other authors you believe have substantiated this argument beyond yourself, be specific. Again none of that says that this article gives undue weight to their far right links. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    See academic references given above. Any of those mentions he founder of the battalion, Andriy Biletsky, said in 2010 that the Ukrainian nation's mission is to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … Biletsky has toned down his rhetoric in recent years in their conclusions? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:10, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    None of them seem to mention wikipedia at all in this context. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:28, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    They don't need to be that specific. If they don't mention Biletsky's changed past, why should we. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    They do actually need to be that specific. You've already been presented with a number of sources which talk about Azov's founding principles, that some other sources are less specific isn't reason not to include. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    They do actually need to be that specific
    Let's concentrate on the argument. Which is that you need to prove the need for The founder of the battalion, Andriy Biletsky, said in 2010 that the Ukrainian nation's mission is to lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … Biletsky has toned down his rhetoric in recent years.
    You've already been presented with a number of sources which talk about Azov's founding principles
    Those are press, we don't need to look at them given abundance on academic sources on the subject.
    that some other sources are less specific isn't reason not to include.
    Not just "some". Academic sources, contrasted to the press.
    Now, let me remind you of another argument you are trying to move off from: you asked to substantiate The whole article is pushing "The whole article is pushing "They are Neo-Nazis" too much, highlighting everything that has "Neo-Nazi" in their surrounding , and you got academic sources which don't mention the contested "fact". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    An absense of evidence is not evidence, that substantiates nothing. Also none of those are full academic sources unless I'm missing something, I see two popular press articles (France 24 and Euro News), one think tank piece (Atlantic Council), and one which I'm not entirely sure about which seems to be a commentary piece. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    An absense of evidence is not evidence, that substantiates nothing
    If academic sources don't mention the contested "fact", why should we?
    Also none of those are full academic sources
    (99+) Vol. 419 Far Right Extremist Movements Fighting in Ukraine Implications for Post conflict Europe | Andreas Wimmer - Academia.edu is from an academic book - Chapter 7: Far-Right Extremist Movements Fighting in Ukraine: Implications for Post-Conflict Europe in: A Research Agenda for Far-Right Violence and Extremism (elgaronline.com)
    We have more. Like Irregular Militias and Radical Nationalism in Post-Euromaydan Ukraine: (taylorfrancis.com)
    Like Foreign Fighters in Ukraine: The Brown–Red Cocktail - Kacper Rękawek - Google Books . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 19:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    So you agree that you misrepresented three of those sources as academic? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Once again you haven't addressed the argument. If we are down to claiming that books published by Edward Elgar Publishing, Routledge and Taylor & Francis are not academic than we should stop here. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    How is addressing a misrepresentation of fact in the argument not addressing the argument? If you want to focus on the overall presentation of arguments you appear to be engaged in a gish gallop, you've been given sources which indicate that mention is due... But you keep pivoting and squirming despite multiple other editors telling you the same thing. So just to be clear you think thats its due to note that they've become less radical, but not what being radical entailed? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    This is not an insignificant detail. Michael Colborne mentions it on p. 27 of his From the Fires of War. Ukraine's Azov Movement and the Global Far Right when he writes about the roots of the movement. Alaexis¿question? 08:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Finally an argument which has ground. Although In June 2022, Colborne told Haaretz that the battalion has gone through changes over the years. After the first few years that the battalion was founded, only a small minority had far right connections. He noted that today, these numbers are even smaller and the use of neo-Nazi symbols among its members has been reduced greatly.[285]
    and Later in 2023, a year after Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine, Colborne reassessed that the brigade's priority had shifted from ideology to fighting the war effectively. He argued that any far-right elements within the Azov Regiment were likely to continue to become less significant as the unit expands and the war takes priority.[272] ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Yes, this is his opinion which is mentioned in the article, even if it's not shared by everyone. It doesn't follow from this that Biletsky's words should be removed. Alaexis¿question? 16:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC)Reply

    References

    1. ^ "Azov Regiment takes centre stage in Ukraine propaganda war". France 24. 25 March 2022. Archived from the original on 25 March 2022. Retrieved 9 May 2022.
    2. ^ Shekhovtsov, Anton (24 February 2020). "Why Azov should not be designated a foreign terrorist organization". Atlantic Council. Archived from the original on 2 June 2021.
    3. ^ Ritzmann, Alexander (12 April 2022). "The myth that far-right zealots run Ukraine is Russian propaganda". Euronews. Archived from the original on 2 June 2022.
    4. ^ Wimmer, Andreas (2023-01-01). "Vol. 419 Far Right Extremist Movements Fighting in Ukraine Implications for Post conflict Europe". Commentaries.

    NPOV

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    Latest comment: 49 minutes ago53 comments5 people in discussion

    @Horse Eye's Back, we are not removing one POV [5] while expanding a fringe POV [6] in our effort to "WP:NPOV" the article. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Being right is not a justification. Slatersteven (talk) 15:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    One major problem with the competence of your analysis: thats not a fringe POV. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:24, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Is Lev Gorekin a major political analysis? Why is his opinion relevant? Slatersteven (talk) 15:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yes, its relevent because he is a major political analysis who is published in a whole myriad of RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Is he wiki link to the article about him please. Slatersteven (talk) 15:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Is that a rhetorical question or mockery? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    NO it's asking how notable are his views, if he a noted enough academic to have an article on Wikipedia, but let's extend it. Has he been published in peer-reviewed journals? How about his academic qualifications, what makes his views non fringe? Slatersteven (talk) 15:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Wikipedia is not a RS and he does not have to be an academic. His views seem to be shared by others within the field, many seem to agree that Azov has not completely depolitiscized. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    But if Academics say it is and non academics say its not, what is a fringe view. So let's use better sources. Slatersteven (talk) 16:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    No... Thats not what is happening here, all the academics aren't of one opinion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Then lets use them, and leave him out, and only have the academic dispute. Why do he need HIS views, when others are available? Slatersteven (talk) 16:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    agree. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:13, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    You are free to do so, but don't remove this until you have better... That how NPOV works. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Not how it works, it's down to those who want to include material to find the sources, not down to those who are arguing to exclude it. And wp:npov also means we only include all SIGNIFICANT viewpoints, his are (arguably not sifnigi=caont that this flail wp:undue. Slatersteven (talk) 16:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The publication of his views by RS suggests that they are signficant. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    MAybe, but publication in RS is not a guarantee they are. Moreover this has nothing to do with expecting us to find the sources supporting this. Slatersteven (talk) 16:30, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    We already have sources which support this, what you have offered to do is to find better sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I never made any such promise, it was said they exist therefore I suggested using them instead, and if this is already covered we go top "why do we need his views" as better sources already cover it (in there article). This really is getting more and more =unude as this now seems to be an argument for just including him for no other reason than he also said this. Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yes, it seems the only thing we have established is that the view is not fringe. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Given abundance of more quality sources on a subject, journalists may well be omitted. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Academic researchers argue that the regiment has changed since its integration into the National Guard, tempering far-right elements and distancing from the movement. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Are you aware of the difference between a fringe view and a minority view? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    so, why one side POV was extended, while opposing POV removed? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:48, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I didn't do that, are you confused? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    its either we keep none or both. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    So its not fringe? You've argued yourself into a corner, if you believe that "its either we keep none or both" then you either don't believe that its fringe or don't know what that term means on wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    AS such I have reset it to before all the removal and addition, lets discuss this. If his views are worthy of inclusion, so is criticism of them. Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I should have reset it to one edit back, before all the addition and removals, I have now corrected that. Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

    Time for me to bail out for a bit and let others have their say, this seems to be a violation of wp:undue, and as such I oppose its inclusion until I say otherwise that objection stands. Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

    BAck in for one message, read wp:brd and WP:ONUS, as well as wp:consensus, do not add any of this back in (read wp:revert) with out it. Slatersteven (talk) 08:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

    No consensus for your addition @Genabab, you are edit warning [8] [9], this is a warning for you to not to do so. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 09:09, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    What specifically is the problem with elaborating on the source material? You appear to have a problem with merely expanding on something that others have agreed is a reliable source while nothing els ewas removed.
    You would be right to call it edit warring if i removed the quote of the man calling it "bugbearing" but as you can see, this has not happened. @Manyareasexpert. There is no reason to oppose the edit which simply elaborates on what comes before it. Genabab (talk) 10:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    No need to extend journalist's POV not supported by academic publications. Quite the contrary, it should be removed in favor of the latter. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    > No need to extend journalist's POV
    Why?
    > not supported by academic publications
    By one academic publication. No one has demonstrated that this is consensus. And the views of major news outlets ought not to be treated as lesser.
    > Quite the contrary, it should be removed in favor of the latter.
    For someone concerned about consensus, I'm not sure why you're aiming to do that? @Manyareasexpert Genabab (talk) 15:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    By one academic publication
    This sentence is false. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 15:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    His POV is already summarized in the article, this article is called "Azov Brigade" not "Lev Gorekin's views on the Azov Brigade". Therefore we don't need to give him more weight than we give any other commentator considered WP:RS, unless you can give a good reason why we should. TylerBurden (talk) 19:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Maybe I should rephrase.
    What specifically do you believe is the problem with expanding on what is already in the page? Everyone seems to be in agreement over Gorekin's article being included. Why make it out to be a problem to simply elaborate more on what Gorekin actually says. You will note, in the areas quoting Gorekin it is only the conclusion he comes to that is shared. Never any of the evidence that he gives for it.
    This is significant as quoting someone saying "this is the case" is miles apart from quoting someone saying "this is the case, and here is why". Compare and contrast with other parts of the sub-section, which do give arguments as to why Azov is no longer a neo-nazi batallion. Its only fair if one side gets to give their evidence that the other side should be able to give their evidence. Doubly so when the majority of the "allegations of Neo-Nazism" subsection is filled with arguments saying that it isn't.
    In other words, its POV-pushing and it reeks of bias. @TylerBurden Genabab (talk) 19:31, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    This already has been answered above. Please stop accusing other editors. This is the violation of Wikipedia:Personal attacks. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 20:46, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I don't believe it is. As I already made clear, simply saying "his POV is summarised" doesn't give anyone here any reason to remove the evidence he provides for said POV.
    I'd be more than willing to drop this objection if you could tell me why it is so objectionable that the evidence Gorekin provides is included. When other sources critical of his view are allowed to do so.
    I'm sorry you feel that way. Rest assured however that no personal attacks have been used here. I'm just concerned about the integrity of this page. Genabab (talk) 21:08, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    See Talk:Azov Brigade#c-Manyareasexpert-20240917152200-Genabab-20240917100300 . ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    ?
    Nothing in that reply tells me why it is that Gorekin is an objectionable source? Genabab (talk) 21:38, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    No need to expand journalist's POV which is not supported by academic publications. Quite the contrary, it should be removed in favor of the latter. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 08:03, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    1. It *is* supported by Academic publications
    2. That is not a reason. You are only asserting a conclusion. *Why* is it that there is no need to do that. Genabab (talk) 09:25, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If it is supported by academic publications then please replace the journalist with those. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 10:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    ...
    Why not both? Genabab (talk) 11:57, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    See WP:SCHOLARSHIP. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 14:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I think you might have linked me the wrong Wikipedia Policy. There is nothing in here which says both cannot be used. Genabab (talk) 17:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The question should be - why use journalist, when there are academic publications available? ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I get that. I'm just saying, we can always use both. You're acting like journalistic sources are the devil's spawn. They're perfectly legitimate and can be used alongside academic ones. Genabab (talk) 20:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I see two users opposing any more expansion of his views. Slatersteven (talk) 15:43, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    SO if this continues for another day, I fell an RFC will be in order, lets some fresh voices be heard. Slatersteven (talk) 15:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
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